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[[Category:Discussion]]

It's like Discussion, y'all. Anything that you might want to draw attention to can be posted and commented upon here. For now, a central location for discussions is more viable than commenting in talk pages, where it may be easily overlooked. --[[User:Snickles|Snickles]] 12:55, 20 May 2005 (Central Daylight Time)

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{{DiscussionArchive}}

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==Page revamp: Skills Which Can Be Permed==
In the interest of easily accessible information, I submit the following suggestion. It would be great if this information [http://kol.coldfront.net/thekolwiki/index.php/Category:Skills_Which_Can_Be_Permed] could be cleaned up/presented more concisely. Perhaps breaking it down into guild skills, skills from quests (i.e. Spookyraven and underwater), skills from books and sheetmusic, etc. and having a table for each, would work better than the current jumbled list. I was hoping to find a list of permable skillbooks to shop for in the mall and was surprised to find a lack of such in a unified article thus far. --[[User:Geekrockgirl85|Geekrockgirl85]] 19:06, 15 February 2010 (EST)
*That's a) not a list, b) guild skills are already located in logical places, and c) [[Skills Obtained From Single-Use Items|take a look at this]].--[[User:Toffile|Toffile]] 00:40, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
** Well there's [[Skills Obtained From Single-Use Items]] and [[Skills By MP Cost]], which actually lists a lot more than just MP cost. I would support merging these into a big, unified table of skills that was sortable by source, perm status, MP cost and other metrics. --[[User:Prestige|Prestige]] 00:58, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
**Also I should clarify. Anything in the "Category" namespace is not a user-generated list. The list is instead automatically generated by the server if an article is tagged to be in that category. All class-specific skills are already listed on their class pages. The remaining non-class related skills in the category  follow into the very tightly grouped subsets, which all sort of have pages where they're already grouped. Hodgman passives, Mother Slime passives, Gnomish skills, Mystical Bookshelf, plus the Rage Gland, enchanted burrito, and...Really-Expensive Jewelry crafting. Honestly, as a note to Prestiege, the answer is not *more* giant tables and more unwatched pages.--[[User:Toffile|Toffile]] 07:43, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
***I find giant tables quite useful in certain circumstances. Also, I was suggesting merging two tables into one, resulting in one fewer table. Now that I think about it though, such a table would probably be too hard to read. Instead, I'm now thinking we could expand [[Skills Obtained From Single-Use Items]] into an article that lists all learnable, non-class-trainer skills and is sortable by subset and source. This would allow users who are searching for skills to see -- on a single page -- which subset each skill belongs to, thus providing a general idea of how to obtain it. I'm guessing that was the intended purpose of that article in the first place: to be a guide for skill hunters. That's what's being requested here, I think it would be useful, and I'd be willing to put it together. --[[User:Prestige|Prestige]] 13:36, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
****That seems a valid idea to me. Since I wasn't around when [[Skills By MP Cost]] was written, I'm left wondering as to what purpose it's supposed to serve. MP cost is important indeed (or rather, MP cost per adv of the granted effect), but it's not the only thing that limits skill accessibility. Class, sign and core-ness have as much of an impact on what skills are available outside of the guild at any given moment. Yet the by-MP-cost page is huge and at the same time, in my humble opinion, not adequately useful.<br>With that said, I like the idea of a page that provides an answer to a hypothetical player going "I wonder if there are any more skills out there".<br>I also happen to have done this work for myself in a spreadsheet (using [[:Category:Skills Which Can Be Permed]], by the way), I suggest the following classification for the article in question:
<font size=1>
:::Class-specific
::::Spookyraven (6)
::::Sea Floor (6)
::::Carols (6)
::::Traveling Trader (2 so far)
:::Hobopolis
::::Multi-Round (5)
::::Un-Flipping (5)
::::AT songs (5)
:::Other
::::Gnomish (5)
::::Hodgman (4)
::::Slime Glands (3)
::::Bookshelf (3+4+2)
::::Miscellaneous ([[CLEESH]], [[Chronic Indigestion]], [[Really Expensive Jewelrycrafting]], [[Transcendent Olfaction]], [[The Smile of Mr. A]], [[Vent Rage Gland]])
</font>
::--[[User:Gadaree|Gadaree]] 14:41, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
::*Smile of Mr A isn't really permable is it? It's almost permed becaused you can't trade the item, and you can use it where ever it is, but it is smashable and then it would be gone. --{{User:Club/sig}} 17:14, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
Please note Prestiege, that with the exception of the Guild skills, Spookyraven/Sea skills (which are all based and locked on by class and already presented on class pages) there are only '''5''' skills that are permable and not located on the "Single-Use..." page. Those are the Gnome skills. I'm not really it's that needed of an expansion, there are very few subsets as it stands.

Gadaree, while I understand what you want, the pages are already in place and having any other page would be redundant and useless. Also, honestly if a person were to think "Are there any more skills out there?" the most likely thing they would probably search for "Skills" or look at the Skills link on the main page (which apparently goes to the MP page and not the category...probably should fix that). The infrastructure for skills is already in place, and mostly complete. If anything should be done, it should be to increase the visibility of the pages that already exist and not make new ones. (And of the 3 concerns you have, classes are already done in length in the appropriate places, [[Hardcore Skill Analysis]] for a general look, and there are only 4 skills that must be permed under one set of signs.)--[[User:Toffile|Toffile]] 19:19, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
: If someone is thinking "Are there any more skills out there?" and they find either Skills by MP Cost or search "skills" and find Category: Skills, in both cases they're presented with a list that is not ordered by subset. In fact, neither page is ordered in a way that is at all useful to that person. I'm proposing to change [[Skills Obtained From Single-Use Items]] into a list that is sorted by subset/source, similar to what Gadaree described. And yes, I would include Sea and Spookyraven skills, even though they also appear on the class pages. I don't see that as redundant; I see it as compiling a guide that is actually useful for players. --[[User:Prestige|Prestige]] 00:11, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
** If someone is thinking "are there any more skills out there?" a much faster and easier way than perusing a wiki page would be using bumcheekcity's script. It basically tells you which skills are not yet permed, and the source is rather well presented as well. If you're unwilling to create your own bumcheekcity profile, you can always just look at his own, and see all the skills ordered by sourse as well. In any case, needing a sorted list of skills seems to be very situational - I can't think of anything which wouldn't be covered by Hardcore Skill Analysis. --{{User:Coolguy00001/sig}} 00:28, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
*** Hardcore Skill Analysis is also not sorted by source. Also I was not even aware of bumcheekcity's profile checker, although I have used other skill checkers. Regardless of what may exist on external sites, I still think it would be helpful to have a list of skills sorted by source on this wiki. --[[User:Prestige|Prestige]] 02:36, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
**** Why is sorting by source so necessary? Hardcore Skill Analysis doesn't sort by source but serves the basic function for anyone looking for a next skill to perm. Finding the source from there is really easy - you just click on the skill link. Even if you wanted to find all other skills under the same "subset", you could easily do that on their respective pages. --{{User:Coolguy00001/sig}} 03:35, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
*****I use [[skills by number]] somewhat often for sorted skills. You've got classless, six character types, conditionals, and bookshelves. --{{User:Club/sig}} 06:05, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
*'''@Toffile''': My bad, I somehow overlooked the "Skills" link on the Main Page quick panel. You're right, the link should take you to the [[:Category: Skills]] page.<br>Mind you, I am in no way advocating the rule of "the more, the merrier" here.<br>'''@Toffile & Prestige''': One possible solution would be placing a structurized list of all skill sources on [[:Category: Skills]]. The list might have to be condensed so as to not clutter [[:Category: Skills]].<br>That way a viewer can get to this list of subsets/sources with just one click (which is what Prestige aims for, as far as I gather), and the "See Also" on the Category page should handle the rest. If they want, they can go to by-MP-cost or obtained-from-items from there. Depending on how this turns out, [[Skills Obtained From Single-Use Items]] could become redundant altogether. --[[User:Gadaree|Gadaree]] 10:16, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
*Gadaree, I'm not sure if this wiki discourages appending that much information to category pages, but if that's not a problem, then I'm fine with that solution. In response to Coolguy, maybe it's just the way my mind works, but if I'm simply browsing a list of available skills, I'd rather look at them ordered by subset/source rather than a hardcore speed analysis list. And it sometimes is not particularly easy to navigate from one skill to another from the same subset, if you're not already familiar with them. The sea skills would be an example. --[[User:Prestige|Prestige]] 08:15, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

== Ban Length ==
*At [[User talk:Rottingflesh]], we concluded a need of a concrete standard about editing others' talk. Discuss. --{{User:Coolguy00001/sig}} 07:47, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
**Is the talk really old? Is it completely misleading and inaccurate? I see nothing wrong with deleting that kind of stuff, even on talk pages. Maybe things could be archived for posterity, but not many people know how to do that.  Also, I'm of the opinion that keeping around misleading and inaccurate stuff is just bad form.  Modifying someone else's talk should first result in a standard warning on the offender's Talk page, simply stating that they should not modify other people's talk (unless it's old or useless?)  This warning could probably link to the policy about editing talk pages, and resultant ban lengths.  I understand that's a judgment call, and probably why the blanket "editing other people's talk is very frowned upon" is stated.  I also think that any potential infraction should take into account how much the user helps the wiki and contributes.  If it's a newbie, and they're just deleting old things, that would probably induce a larger penalty than someone that's been around a while, and has established that they are a helpful and knowledgeable editor. If they are warned, and continue to do it against a ''polite'' warning from a mod, then maybe a 1 day ban, to be like "we're not kidding. Stop it." then if they continue, a longer ban would be in order. --[[User:MindlessGames|RoyalTonberry]] 08:05, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
***#Though I'm in a large way responding to things from CG1's last post on RottingFlesh's talk page, this seems like a much better and still relevant venue for discussion. Not sure if all of these are relevant, but I'm not sure where better to mention them. Please redirect/relocate this to a more appropriate location if needed
***#To me, a ban length of any amount of time (for a first offence in particular) is unwarranted when there are no policies being broken. CG1 said the the KolWiki tends to follow Wikipedia's guidelines, which is fair enough. But how is anyone to know that? I browsed through a bunch of pages today, and couldn't find that kind of info. What I see about discussion page editing: [[Established Standards]] doesn't have anything about talks, it just mentions that the page "assumes a basic knowledge of [[Make a Wiki page|wiki editing]]." That page, under its "Discussion Pages" section, it says "Click on the "+" tab to add a new section, '''or edit the page in the same way as an article page.''' Use talk pages for questions, comments, or raw data." (bolding mine). That implies that deletion of comments is acceptable, no? Though, [[Help:Contents]] says this: "Also, editing or deleting other people's comments is generally not appreciated, although discussions may be archived." Not appreciating is a lot different than blocking, to me. Also, information about how one goes about archiving things is absent as well. The standards about editing talk are vague at best, nonexistent at worst. Maybe we should have a link to the wikipedia standards saying "when in doubt, refer to this"? If I were to go solely off what I've seen on the pages here, editing and deleting individual talk posts would seem okay - if sometimes questionable, depending on what's being removed - and definitely not worthy of time spent blocked. --[[User:Kirkpatrick|Kirkpatrick]] 08:56, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
***This wasn't a simple "deleting ancient talk and a horribly outdated page".  I didn't bother reverting his blanking of the outdated page, you might notice.  I didn't even realize that the page ''existed'' until he waltzed into it, and I could tell it was something in need of either deletion or a massive revamp.  So I was fine with the idea of someone coming in with a rewrite ready to go.  Not that that page needed blanking to make the incoming rewrite necessary; it was already tagged for one, actually.  The problem was the way in which he did it.  I see the Hogs have a general problem with realizing that they are not, in fact, the center of the (KoL) universe.  Waltzing around and waving your wang about while professing your excellence and dominance does not make you a productive, helpful, or knowledgeable editor.  It makes you an ass.  Your arguments run something like this:  "I told a woman that she was beautiful and smart.  I did a nice thing.", all the while refusing to acknowledge that you were covered in shit and bashing her face in with a dead baby while you were doing it.  That changes things quite a bit, even if you don't realize it.  But I think I'm growing tired of feeding the trolls from the Hogs.  We can work on a way to make certain policies more transparent, that much is well and good.  I think there should never be an explicitly stated policy of "don't be an ass", however.  That is understood by anyone in a public situation who isn't an incurable ass already.  RF was banned for being an ass.  And then banned some more for being a bigger ass.  And if he persists, he'll likely be banned forever for being a known incurable ass.  It's very simple.  His cadre of clanmates who came in and went about putting in his rewrite without being an ass?  They were ''not'' banned for being an ass; or anything else.  ''They'' were being helpful, knowledgeable, useful editors.  And I dislike playing favorites with ban lengths, too, at least not with this sort of infraction.  You don't earn the right to be an ass.  You don't earn the right to spam links to boot brands.  You don't earn the right to turn a wiki page into your personal vanity site.  Etc. etc.  You do these things, and you get banned like anyone else; the length only goes up depending on your editing history (or lack thereof), not down.  There are admins that make themselves available for contact should the banned party feel they should be unbanned or the like if they think they had that one-in-a-million situation to explain it away.  --[[User:Flargen|Flargen]] 14:24, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
****Wow, thanks for painting my whole clan with your broad brush.  I appreciate your mercy in not banning RoyalTonberry or me for trying to clean up that horribly useless page, too.  RottingFlesh asked in /clan if anyone was interested in helping him turn that page from the mess it was to something useful and informative.  A couple of us volunteered, so (since we're all in the same clan! funny how that works when you're discussing stuff in /clan) RF put that notice up just to get a blank slate to start with.  It's probably not what I would have done, but I was under the impression that anyone who wants to see old versions of a page can simply click over to the history.  Anyway, Kirkpatrick and Stupac2 both contributed sections to the page (I believe at RT's request) so it's not like we think we're the only ones who understand basic game mechanics.  Seeing these kinds of inflammatory comments from an admin (who apparently had some personal issues with RF while he was still in your clan and is now taking it out on an entire other clan) makes me really feel like I don't want to put in the kind of effort again that I just did for that page.  I don't expect gratitude for my efforts, but I could do with fewer of the ridiculous insults.  --[[User:Deandra|Deandra]]  23:10, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
*****Rewrites are fine if they're topical and fitting.  As the new version of the page appears to be.  Collaborating with others--clan members, friends, or otherwise--is also well and good.  Blanking a page with comments to the effect of "THIS IS NOW THE PERSONAL PROPERTY OF THE HOGS" is neither well nor good.  If I paint your clan with a broad brush it is because I have had the misfortune of primarily seeing the ones who don't know enough to see an infraction on common sense etiquette that even my socially-inept self can pick up on.  You seem to be thinking "he had the good intention of writing a better version of the page" is all that is needed, ignoring the whole "he also decided to make a page into his own little vanity piece, caps-lock included".  I've never voiced any problem with rewriting the page.  My problem is with the penis-waving he felt he had to make the talk page into.  If you can't figure out the distinction between those two and which side of that fence you were falling on...there's nothing I can do for you.  If you want gratitude for me not liking a wholly inappropriate edit someone made on a page that wasn't even the one you and others were working...then I think you just made my brain explode.  And my personal clan associations right now aren't very meaningful.  I am not an active KoL player, and am retired for all intents right now.  --[[User:Flargen|Flargen]] 00:58, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
******You're implying that the entirety of my clan's contributions to the wiki are akin to bashing someone in the head with a dead baby while covered in shit.  Perhaps you intended that part only for RF, but since you stuck it in the middle of a statement about how Hogs think we're the center of the KoL universe and how tired you are of us trolls, that's not how I read it.  Since you've already admitted to being socially inept, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and drop it.  --[[User:Deandra|Deandra]] 01:30, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
*I see two things in need of clarification:
*#What are reasonable guidelines for initially handing out a ban?
*#What are reasonable ban durations for a given infraction?
*It's pretty common for wikis to use the principles of Wikipedia in their administration, but that needs to be noted somewhere, otherwise users cannot find said policies. In the case that started this, my personal view would have been to revert the change and give the user a talk page warning; it wasn't abject vandalism, even though it wasn't the way things should have been done. I also think a one month block after they came back was a bit much -- yes they were insulting, but a user's talk page is a user's talk page. If they want to delete things from it, they have the right to do so (since the comment is technically archived in the edit history). That's right from [[wikipedia:Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines|Wikipedia]] -- it's discouraged, but but is not in and of itself a bannable offense, in my opinion. So this is the thing: if you want to use wikipedia's policies and guidelines, then the admins have to be consistent with them. Even a personal attack deserves a warning followed by a short initial block at most. Banning should always be used as a last resort -- in practice it rarely works well when used as a "go sit in the corner" kind of punishment.
*So, if wikipedia's policies are going to be considered the 'de facto' policies here, it needs to be clearly stated as an established standard. Then, it needs to be followed. And any deviations from wikipedia should be noted in that standard. --[[User:Lordebon|Lordebon]] 14:49, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
*#i would always counsel against making rules explicit, since rules make lawyers, and lawyers are assholes. leaving the whole "oh look douchebaggery, what should i do?" process up to the admins' discretion leaves no space for "but the rules say" nonsense.
*#a stern typing to, or the threat of a ban? don't cut it. bans are pretty much all we got as far as punishment goes.
*#making bans and the procedures of banning consistent by codification has the opposite effect to the one you propose: it just demands acres of text debating equivalence.
*#since editing talk is such a douchebag thing to do (hey, look, i changed what you said and now i look ''smart'' and you look ''stupid'' hur hur) and the edge cases start so close to what would be otherwise be considered normal that a flat ban is the smartest and easiest for everyone. 
*#rottingflesh didn't get banned for editing talk. he got banned for disobedience. and rightly so. --[[User:Evilkolbot|Evilkolbot]] 21:07, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
***If that's the case, then there should be a short standard saying banning is at the admin's discretion for cause and duration and say that standards of action are considered mostly the same as Wikipedia (and then link to wikipedia's standards). Then a user at least knows where to go to see what they can or cannot do. As an aside, I agree that editing others talk is not acceptable but that's not the same as just deleting talk on one's own talk page (which was [http://kol.coldfront.net/thekolwiki/index.php?title=User_talk%3ARottingflesh&diff=407509&oldid=407508 the case] that started this discussion). As another aside, it might be getting time to archive some of the old discussion, since this page is over 100k. --[[User:Lordebon|Lordebon]] 21:24, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
****move done. --[[User:Evilkolbot|Evilkolbot]] 21:45, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
*Evilkolbot, I need to ask you; how could RF have been banned for disobedience? Obedience is defined as following rules or orders, but there are no outlined rules! And not only are there no outlined rules right now, but Evilkolbot, you are suggesting that no rules ever be hammered out because they will lead to lawyers and "acres of text debating equivalence." I would call this discussion an acre of text. The only difference being that we are not debating equivalence but debating the lack of defined rules. If your goal is to reduce the amount of text that must be written and read by admins, you are definitely not accomplishing it with this scenario. If Flargen had issued a warning rather than a ban, I doubt that it would have ruffled RF's feathers, so he'd never have told Flargen off, and everyone would be getting on with their happy lives. The admins are treating RF like he is a hardened criminal that either won't or can't change, but until this shitstorm occurred, no one had any problems with him on the wiki. Look at all of the people who are defending him! Mr. Green said on RF's user talk page, "Excessive bans only prolong the conflict, encouraging the accused to continue the debate. Which leads to more bans." I believe that this is precisely the case. This ban should never have happened and is only making matters worse.--[[User:DarthDud|DarthDud]] 22:34, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
**Actually, I banned RF for removing talk. I also tend to agree that the first instance probably should have been a warning as opposed to a ban - this is why I shortened his ban duration. I assumed there was a reason necessitating a ban the first time, which is why I did not completely unblock RF. --{{User:Coolguy00001/sig}} 23:58, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
***I'll acquiesce to the request that a "slap on the wrist" that's lighter than what I imagined (a week is nothing; seriously) is the proper first course of action in this sort of situation.  And certain types of behavior rub me in the wrong way.  RF's edit to the talk page is exactly the kind of edit that strikes me as wholly inappropriate and unwarranted, and a mini-vacation cuts the problem off at the source.  And using caps lock does not lend me to believe that the transgressor is not going to engage in "retaliatory" edits that vandalize the same page, or other pages.  Having dealt with several such problem editors here has given me a short fuse with them, and he threw up all the warning flags I needed to give out a strong slap-on-the-wrist in the form of a 1 week ban.  If I profiled a little to swiftly, then resolving incidents resulting from that is one of the good things about having several other admins around, and I'll keep that in mind in the future.  --[[User:Flargen|Flargen]] 00:58, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

== Redirect plurals ==

I think that plurals of items should redirect to the item. Example: [[Moxie weed]] [[Moxie weeds]].--[[User:Starguy|Starguy]] 01:20, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
:I think that example is terrible It's merely a misunderstanding of wiki syntax. Instead of <nowiki>[[Moxie weeds]] use [[Moxie weed]]s</nowiki> and the parser will do the right thing with the link: [[Moxie weed]]s. --{{User:Club/sig}} 19:00, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
*What's the point? Most people search in the singular anyways. Also, that would also imply creating pages for boxen, which aren't standard plurals and thus unlikely to be searched. --{{User:Coolguy00001/sig}} 02:14, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
**Abnormal plurals would seem the most warranted for redirects.  Remember how many people got confused when the game first told them they'd gotten things like {{plural|gimlet}} and [[vodka gibson|vodka carlisles]]?  Still, I'm not fond of the idea.  --[[User:Flargen|Flargen]] 15:47, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
::*Abnormal plurals '''are''' the most warranted for redirects. A search for [http://kol.coldfront.net/thekolwiki/index.php/Special:Search?search=gimlis&fulltext=Search gimlis] returns no results. In more obvious cases, I don't think they are needed. --{{User:Club/sig}} 18:57, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
:::*That's a consequence of the plural being in the data page and thus not actually appearing in the wiki-code for an item. If you use an advanced search that includes the Data namespace it'll show up. Of course, most users aren't going to do that. The occasional odd pluaral that's commonly referred to in-game by said plural might be a ok for a redirect (or disambig, as necessary). But obvious plurals (like [[moxie weed]]s) certainly do not need nor should have redirects. --[[User:Lordebon|Lordebon]] 21:06, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
::::*I notice that there already are redirects for some plurals, regular and irregular. [[Crimbux]] and [[twinkly nuggets]] for example. --{{User:Club/sig}} 22:27, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
:::::*"Twinkly nuggets" is singular.  The plural is {{plural|twinkly nuggets}}.  As for Crimbux, that is the result of wiki admins not noticing that being created during the influx of crimbo content.  --[[User:Flargen|Flargen]] 02:19, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
::*I think I used to be against most unnecessary redirects, but I don't know if these are unnecessary. Still, we should not link to redirect pages, and having more redirects available to be linked to makes that a little harder to discourage, but this may be a wiki usability problem, in which having the redirects there, just makes things easier for everyone (except just the major wiki editors/admins).  I don't love the idea of having redirect for every plural, but I'm warming up to it. And unique plurals (ones more than just +s) seem like a no-brainer, especially the weird ones.  I've tried to look up a weird one before thinking it was a new item and couldn't find it.  And since the plurals are on data pages which don't show up in regular searches, and aren't searchable on the regular pages since they are placed in by a template, it seems like plural redirects may be an easy solution. --[[User:JRSiebz|JRSiebz]] ([[User talk:JRSiebz|&#x260E;]]|[[Special:Contributions/JRSiebz|&#167;]]|[[Special:Listusers/sysop|&#8225;]]) 02:59, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

== Potions update ==

Trivial update today has created a new field that needs to be added to item template. [[:Category:Potions|Potions]] is pretty large, so what would be the best way of going about it?--[[User:Toffile|Toffile]] 20:10, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
*"''Potion-type items now have a clickable indication of what effect they'll give you in their description popup."'' Only one Effect/Duration is shown in the item description window, even If a potion grants multiple effects. I guess just add effect=X, and duration=X. I'll add it to {{tl|item}} <s>around rollover</s> now if no one beats me too it by then.  But check in-game which effect is being shown. Just remember potion Effect is not equipment Enchantment. (Note: I'll prob make it a little more robust later, & make the effect a link, etc.) --[[User:JRSiebz|JRSiebz]] ([[User talk:JRSiebz|&#x260E;]]|[[Special:Contributions/JRSiebz|&#167;]]|[[Special:Listusers/sysop|&#8225;]]) 21:46, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
**Alright. One minor question, can you add it so that any potions without effects/durations can get dumped into a temporary category to ease checking? And uh, just a word for the wise. All Sauceror potions appear to use 5 turns as the base but don't add the bonus turns for Saucerors/Sauciness.--[[User:Toffile|Toffile]] 00:03, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
**As the wiki updates pages, potions without an effect declared will be temporarily dumped into [[:Category:Potions without an Effect Listed]].  It prob should just be changed to {{CatLink|Incomplete}} after the initial update. --[[User:JRSiebz|JRSiebz]] ([[User talk:JRSiebz|&#x260E;]]|[[Special:Contributions/JRSiebz|&#167;]]|[[Special:Listusers/sysop|&#8225;]]) 02:14, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
***The template should probably pull the effect name from the metadata, in case it's a disambiguated effect. I can't think of one off the top of my head, but Jick has a nasty habit of breaking the Wiki. Because he is a clubby griefy meany. --Bagatelle<sup>[[User talk:Bagatelle|T]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/Bagatelle|C]]</sub> 03:51, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
***There ya go. I steals a line from {{tl|AcquireEffect}} and ta-dah! --[[User:JRSiebz|JRSiebz]] ([[User talk:JRSiebz|&#x260E;]]|[[Special:Contributions/JRSiebz|&#167;]]|[[Special:Listusers/sysop|&#8225;]]) 04:08, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
****Actually it'll have to get dropped, because of the [[oil of oiliness]]. It'll be perpetually in Incomplete, as it's a potion, but doesn't grant an effect (and one isn't listed in game).--[[User:Toffile|Toffile]] 15:26, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

A minor update. We're now at the point where the server still has to process roughly 700 items and finish spitting them in the category. (As I write this, the server's gotten to items added somewhere around mid-January 2009) For the most part, most potions have now been correctly identified and tagged. However, as it's becoming readily apparent, there are quite a few potions that don't actually have effects tagged in-game, for various reasons. As it stands, dumping it out into a separate category probably has some merit and shouldn't just be dropped into Incomplete. I've added some text to [[:Category:Potions without an Effect Listed]] to help explain what the category is for a bit more.--[[User:Toffile|Toffile]] 06:03, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
*Also to answer Bagatelle's question. It might be necessary, but I don't believe there's a case of overlap between potions and effect names. I may be wrong, but the only item/effect overlap exists in The Spirit of Crimbo. The only other conflicts exist between skills and effects.--[[User:Toffile|Toffile]] 06:05, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
*I think the wiki is updating at one page per 10 visits/requests, so it takes a while, see [[Special:Statistics]]. Once all are dumped into the category, and then we review what's left, of course the category will be removed, specially since know we know that there are some potions which break the mold (we didn't know that yesterday).  And what's the deal with [[fruitfilm]]?  Using it gives you a random fruit.  No effect.  Why is it even a potion?  It is a texbook usable item and inventorized as such. It's practically a [[Knob Kitchen grab-bag]] full of vitamin C. Silly devs. ;) --[[User:JRSiebz|JRSiebz]] ([[User talk:JRSiebz|&#x260E;]]|[[Special:Contributions/JRSiebz|&#167;]]|[[Special:Listusers/sysop|&#8225;]]) 06:26, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
**Well, it kind of does two things. It'll show the updated potion page with the category on a view, but won't actually commit it to the actual category without some form of edit (including a null one). It's a bit of a way to force the server to manually update pages that it hasn't processed yet. Some people may or not use null edits in a way as to queue up particular pages. *cough* As for [[fruitfilm]] I have no idea. I'd guess because it's a halloween candy, but there's [[lint]].--[[User:Toffile|Toffile]] 06:33, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
***Actually, now that I think about it, what's probably leading to the large job queue was the edits you made to Template:Item yesterday. Had to go recheck everything that was done before. Alas the benefit and drawback of such templates :/--[[User:Toffile|Toffile]] 06:41, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
**Since {{CatLink|Potions without an Effect Listed}} wasn't meant to be permanent as it really isn't useful, I think a good idea would be to have the leftover potions specifically state effect=0 or effect=n, that way (future) potions potion undefined effects can be added to {{CatLink|Incomplete}}, and we can still differentiate between potions that don't have an effect listed in-game and potion that just haven't had their effect listing defined on the wiki.--[[User:JRSiebz|JRSiebz]] ([[User talk:JRSiebz|&#x260E;]]|[[Special:Contributions/JRSiebz|&#167;]]|[[Special:Listusers/sysop|&#8225;]]) 08:35, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

== Item Granted Effect Lengths ==

For example, reagent potions.  Let's pick, um [[eyedrops of newt]].  It lists that it grants 5-15 Adventures of [[Newt Gets In Your Eyes]].  That seems to imply it randomly gives you any number between 5 and 15.  Especially to those not familiar with the (class/skill/etc.) bonuses.  We used to right this as duration: 5/10/15 Adventures.  Anyone remember why we stopped doing that?  I think there used to be even a Note written on every one of 'em, which is overkill because we don't mention munchies pills on every food item.  But maybe writing it as 5/10/15 and having 5/10/15 link to a page which explains effect length bonuses (class bonuses, [[Impetuous Sauciness]], etc.) would be beneficially to the less informed koler? I also noticed that for [[buff]] skills and their effect length, it just says X adventures, and has a note saying it depends.  Should listing 5/10/15 there also be useful, with it linking to where buff length is explained (like on the [[Buff]] page itself. Would that be more usable? I'd be nice to have someone who didn't already have over half the game memorized chime in. --[[User:JRSiebz|JRSiebz]] ([[User talk:JRSiebz|&#x260E;]]|[[Special:Contributions/JRSiebz|&#167;]]|[[Special:Listusers/sysop|&#8225;]]) 02:49, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
*As I recall, one of the problems with Buffs specifically was that you could have all kinds of weird numbers, when you use (just as an example) various accordions and maybe a j.e.w. hat, so you could get things like.. 5/7/10/12/15/20 or something, which becomes ungainly, as well as things like the Opera mask which introduces even more possible values. --[[User:MindlessGames|RoyalTonberry]] 02:54, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
*Well at least the [[buff]] skills have a link in the notes, explaining the value.  For reagent potions, like [[eyedrops of newt]], it just says 5-15, no explanation, no link, no nothing. Is the amount dependent on something, who knows? (well ''I'' do, but that's not the point) Just seems like it's saying you use this item and get 6 or 9 or 10 or 4 adventures of an effect randomly. Not very n00b friendly. --[[User:JRSiebz|JRSiebz]] ([[User talk:JRSiebz|&#x260E;]]|[[Special:Contributions/JRSiebz|&#167;]]|[[Special:Listusers/sysop|&#8225;]]) 03:07, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
**Burn the nubs, boo hiss. Using "X", adding two flags to the {{tl|acquireEffect}} template (buffduration=, potionduration= or somesuch), and linking to the appropriate explanatory sections, in much the same way that {{tl|acquire}} has an asterisk linking to the StatsNotes page for drop rate data, would probably be easiest, if not clearest. --Bagatelle<sup>[[User talk:Bagatelle|T]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/Bagatelle|C]]</sub> 03:51, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

== Forgotten City Map ==

I was getting lost (at first) in the Forgotten City so decided to make a map. Then it didn't turn out as good as i thought it would be so I'm dropping it here, maybe you guys can make something of it :). It would be a shame to just delete it like it never was --[[User:Lajcik|Lajcik]] 19:48, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

''Ground Level''

{| cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" align="center"
| 
| [[File:Boringtemple.gif|link=Ancient Temple]]
| 
|-
| 
| [[File:Levergate.gif|link=Northern Gate]]
| 
|-
| [[File:Talltower.gif|link=An Ancient Tower]]
| [[File:Statuearch.gif|link=North Side of the City]]
| [[File:Downstairs_a.gif|link=Northern Abandoned Building]]
|-
| [[File:Towerwarehouse.gif|link=West Side of the City]]
| [[File:Citycenter.gif|link=City Center]]
| [[File:Twobldgs.gif|link=East Side of the City]]
|-
| [[File:Vinewarehouse.gif|link=Storehouse]]
| [[File:Cityentrance.gif|link=Entrance to the Forgotten City]]
| [[File:Downstairs_b.gif|link=Southern Abandoned Building]]
|}

''Underground Level''
{| cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" align="center"
| 
| [[File:Chainstones.gif|link=Catacombs Machinery]]
| [[File:Interior_a.gif|link=Northern Building (Basement)]]
|-
| 
| [[File:Puddle.gif|link=Shore of an Underground Lake]]
| 
|-
| 
| [[File:Tjunction.gif|link=Catacomb Junction]]
| [[File:Interior_b.gif|link=Southern Building (Basement)]]
|-
| 
| [[File:Chest.gif|link=Catacombs Dead-End]]
| 
|}
*You mostly just need to add some arrows to indicate what is connected to what.  Check out [[Talk:Hyboria? I don't even...#Visual_Guide|this quest map]]. --[[User:Fig bucket|Fig bucket]] 23:33, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

== Regarding the Parseable * Pages ==

Hey. Irregular here. I've recently begun updating [http://userscripts.org/scripts/show/30853 MonsterStats] again. However, I've run into a snag, and was hoping that the Wiki could help me. As you may or may not know, Subjunctive KoL is out-dated, and has been out-dated for a while. Furthermore, the parser originally written to gather the meat-drop data from that site broke years ago. As part of my revival of MonsterStats, I decided to re-write the parser to use the information present at [[Parseable Meat Statistics]], since it seems to be more up-to-date. However, the data on that page is also quite old.

Here's where I actually ask for the Wiki's help:
First, does the Wiki as a whole have a problem with me releasing a version of MonsterStats that calls that page? I wanted to ask because the script is already getting [[Parseable Item Statistics]] in order to calculate item drops from monsters. (I can stop that behavior, if it is necessary.) I'm also wary of increasing the load on the Wiki, as I can recall times when the Wiki went down.

Second, if the Wiki is not against the script using that page, is there a way to automatically update that page based on the meat drop information present in the Data pages for the monsters? (This is likely to be more load-intensive than the previous question.) I read that a template could be used to gather the information and than save the page as just the gathered information, so that the data only needs to be gathered occasionally. (Once a month? Bimonthly? Whatever is convenient.) Unfortunately, I don't know anything about Media Wiki syntax, only that it can be done.

If the Wiki is amenable to the first and second questions, then I'll start working on the template. --[[User:Irregular|Irregular]] 20:55, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
*Just skimming thru your code I see the line  "Item-drop data is missing or more than one day old.  Checking Yiab&#8217;s page in the KoLWiki for latest version." Yet Yiab hasn't updated [[Parseable Item Statistics]] since 10:18, October 25, 2008 and [[Parseable Meat Statistics]] since 14:47, February 14, 2008, which reveals an inherent flaw in your setup. I'd say either include all the data within your script (or update yearly o.o) or push for better spading efforts.  If you're ambitious, I'd say with you as the script author, you could find a way to use your own users to collect data and upload to a server once a day for statistics.  Sadly, a wiki is not well suited for automated numeric data acquisition and statistics.  I'd suggest you and a friend write up a simple server daemon and ask around for some friendly kol fansite server owners you will help you out with hosting.--{{:User:Dehstil}} 11:31, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
*Actually, there is already [[Monster Data (1 to E)|a series of pages]] that extracts many of the stats from the Data: namespace (though they're probably missing some of the newer monsters). If template know-how is the only thing stopping you it should be pretty easy just to grab the name and Meat columns from the tables, rather than constructing a new template from scratch. --Bagatelle<sup>[[User talk:Bagatelle|T]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/Bagatelle|C]]</sub> 03:21, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
*Figured I should get back to you guys about this. First, I've started my own spading effort using a multi, so the datedness of the data will be an eventual non-issue. Second, while collecting data from users is a good plan, controlling for all the variables is a major headache. (One that I don't need on top of updating the script and writing the spading parser.) However, storing the files the script needs somewhere else than here might not be bad plan. Something to think about, anyway. Regarding the first question, is there a problem with publishing the version that calls the Meat Statistics page, if only as a temporary measure? --[[User:Irregular|Irregular]] 09:13, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
** To Dehstil: You're right, printing that message is fairly confusing. To me, it means "Your local copy of <information> is out of date. We're gonna check to make sure it's the best data available." Not "Hey, spading might have produced some new data in the day between checks. Let's go get it." which is also a valid reading of the message. I'll probably change it to be more clear. (Next update. Maybe. Possibly. I'm lazy, but diligent.) --[[User:Irregular|Irregular]] 06:49, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

== Familiar Pages & Jingle Bells ==
I was thinking that maybe the effect from [[Jingle_Bells|Jingle Bells]] should be mentioned on each relevant familiar's page. After all, it alters their behavior like no other buff does. I'm talking about a couple of words added, like
*The Robogoose has a 1/3 chance of acting each round, with each of its actions being equally likely.
changed to
*The Robogoose has a 33.3% chance of acting each round (43.3% with a [[Jingle_Jangle_Jingle|Jingle Jangle Jingle]] buff), with each of its actions being equally likely.
Sure, not all familiars have their chances of acting fully discovered, but a good portion of them do. --[[User:Gadaree|Gadaree]] 12:19, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

:Disagree. Looking at [[Jingle Jangle Jingle]], the change seems pretty clear: it's a 10% boost (thus 20->30, 33->43, and 50->60). I could see if it was different for each and every familiar, but since it's pretty consistent I don't think it needs to go on each page. --[[User:Lordebon|Lordebon]] 16:55, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
:If any user is curious about the Jingle Jangle effect, they would look up the effect directly. It's the same reason why we don't note the Mad Hatrack's behavior on every hat article.--[[User:Prestige|Prestige]] 00:55, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

==Nemesis outfit tattoos==
Someone should pick a name for the tattoos you get from the nemesis outfit and standardize it.  I called the AT one the [[Epic Accordion Thief Tattoo]] because that was the first thing that came to mind, but looking at the rest of the Legendary Regalia, it's split pretty well between Reverse/Reversed (class) Tattoo.  Also - disambig page for Legendary Regalia, useful or pointless? --[[User:Johnny Treehugger|Johnny Treehugger]] 16:57, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
*Eh, I did the initial tagging last night. I tend to base the name off the File Name...though calling them Epic tattoos wouldn't be the worst thing. I made the Pastamancer tattoo page before I saw your edit, so I was actually going to bring this up as well.--[[User:Toffile|Toffile]] 17:19, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

==Vial of slime category==
I'd like to start a category for the 13 colors of vials of slime.  Any objection?  Or should there just be a normal page listed the types and with info on mixing them?  --[[User:ElroyJetson|ElroyJetson]] 20:37, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
*We do have [[Slime Mixing]] in progress. Probably best to start something like [[Dungeons of Doom potions]] for them.--[[User:Toffile|Toffile]] 20:38, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
** I proposed the same thing in the slime mixing talk page. It would definitely work out, seeing that the slime effects are randomized.--[[User:Erich|Erich]] 20:42, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

== Cross Class Volcano Consistency ==

Stuff may not be named optimally, but it should at least be consistent now. Just mapping out the nemesis volcano sequence for all classes to make sure everything's there. All the "Flying in Circles" seem have lowercase I in IN here, but I know first hand that the SC one is named "Flying In Circles".  The others may need to be moved/changed. --[[User:JRSiebz|JRSiebz]] ([[User talk:JRSiebz|&#x260E;]]|[[Special:Contributions/JRSiebz|&#167;]]|[[Special:Listusers/sysop|&#8225;]]) 02:54, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

{| border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="4" style="text-align: center;"
|-
! [[Seal Clubber]]
! [[Turtle Tamer]]
! [[Pastamancer]]
! [[Sauceror]]
! [[Disco Bandit]]
! [[Accordion Thief]] 
|-
| [[Secret Tropical Island Volcano Lair (Seal Clubber)]]
| [[Secret Tropical Island Volcano Lair (Turtle Tamer)]]
| [[Secret Tropical Island Volcano Lair (Pastamancer)]]
| [[Secret Tropical Island Volcano Lair (Sauceror)]]
| [[Secret Tropical Island Volcano Lair (Disco Bandit)]]
| [[Secret Tropical Island Volcano Lair (Accordion Thief)]]
|-
| [[A Dark Cave]]
| [[Inner Compound]]
| [[Temple]]
| [[Main Hall]]
| [[A Dance Club]]
| [[The Hacienda]]
|-
| colspan="6" | [[The Nemesis' Lair]]
|-
| [[Gorgolok, the Infernal Seal (The Nemesis' Lair)]]
| [[Stella, the Turtle Poacher (The Nemesis' Lair)]]
| [[Spaghetti Elemental (The Nemesis' Lair)]]
| [[Lumpy, the Sinister Sauceblob (The Nemesis' Lair)]]
| [[The Spirit of New Wave (The Nemesis' Lair)]]
| [[Somerset Lopez, Dread Mariachi (The Nemesis' Lair)]]
|-
| colspan="6" | [[A Volcanic Cave]]
|-
| [[Gorgolok, the Infernal Seal (Volcanic Cave)]] 
| [[Stella, the Turtle Poacher (Volcanic Cave)]] 
| [[Spaghetti Elemental (Volcanic Cave)]]
| [[Lumpy, the Sinister Sauceblob (Volcanic Cave)]] 
| [[The Spirit of New Wave (Volcanic Cave)]] 
| [[Somerset Lopez, Dread Mariachi (Volcanic Cave)]] 
|-
| [[Flying In Circles (Seal Clubber)]]
| [[Flying in Circles (Turtle Tamer)]]
| [[Flying in Circles (Pastamancer)]]
| [[Flying in Circles (Sauceror)]] 
| [[Flying in Circles (Disco Bandit)]]
| [[Flying in Circles (Accordion Thief)]]
|-
| [[Gorgolok, the Demonic Hellseal]]
| [[Stella, the Demonic Turtle Poacher]]
| [[Spaghetti Demon]]
| [[Lumpy, the Demonic Sauceblob]]
| [[Demon of New Wave]]
| [[Somerset Lopez, Demon Mariachi]]
|}
*The [[Turtle Tamer]] version is also "Flying In Circles", with the capital I.  They all need to be moved, it seems.  --[[User:Flargen|Flargen]] 03:33, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
**And is there any particular reason to give each of the Flying In Circles possibilities their own page, instead of amalgamating them all onto one page?  I know they all have different text, but it's not a great amount.  --[[User:Flargen|Flargen]] 03:36, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
**I would have thought they all had different choice adventure numbers, guess not.  But would 6 descriptions and 6 {{tl|combat}} for uber nemeses be too much?  I mean even [[The Nemesis' Lair]] might end up looking a little cluttered. --[[User:JRSiebz|JRSiebz]] ([[User talk:JRSiebz|&#x260E;]]|[[Special:Contributions/JRSiebz|&#167;]]|[[Special:Listusers/sysop|&#8225;]]) 04:30, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
***I separated them as having one page would be a bit unwieldy and the information is probably best broken up per class for easier reference.--[[User:Toffile|Toffile]] 05:58, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

I'd like to point out that the Flying in Circles pages aren't homogeneous. I checked TT and PM. --[[User:Raijinili|Raijinili]] 05:29, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

== Superlikelies, scheduled adventures and such ==

I think it would be useful to mention Superlikelyhood, scheduling, delay and such on the adventure pages themselves. For example mentioning on the notes part of [[We'll All Be Flat]] that it is a 25% chance superlikely seems very useful to me. Currently all this information is hidden in [[Combat Frequency]]. I would go a further step and add categories for the types of adventures, but that's just me. Discuss. --[[User:Muhandes|Muhandes]] 10:50, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
: Well, no one is against the idea? No one is in favor? --[[User:Muhandes|Muhandes]] 07:26, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

:I for one would encourage this. I'm not a KoL expert to keep all superlikelies in my head, so I could use a note saying that there ''is'' one when this is the case. For a balance of unostentatious and informative, I would mention the superlikely on the [[The Haunted Ballroom|location page]]. Going with the example above:
{{Adventure|name=We'll All Be Flat|note1=Opens the [[Spookyraven Manor Wine Cellar]].|note2=Only occurs during the [[Quest for the Holy MacGuffin]].|note3=A [[Ascension#One-Time|one-time]] [[Combat_Frequency#Superlikely_Adventures|superlikely]] adventure.|image=Organ.gif}}
:My point is that this will suffice. What this accomplishes: a) conserving space on the existing pages; b) giving info where it's needed (when you know you're waiting for an non-combat in the Ballroom, you go to the Ballroom page and not elsewhere); c) encouraging people to read [[Combat Frequency]] about the exact chance (which is 25%) so that they maybe remember what other non-combats are superlikelies. --[[User:Gadaree|Gadaree]] 12:57, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

:: This will indeed be very helpful. I think there is also benefit in adding the information at the adventure page notes section, e.g. in this case the notes section would be:

*A [[Ascension#One-Time|one-time]] [[Combat_Frequency#Superlikely_Adventures|superlikely]] adventure, with a chance of 25%.
*Unlocks the [[Spookyraven Manor Wine Cellar]].
*This adventure takes precedence over the [[Rotting Matilda]] adventure.

--[[User:Muhandes|Muhandes]] 15:04, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
:*I support adding a note to the location index pages as well as the actual adventures. --Bagatelle<sup>[[User talk:Bagatelle|T]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/Bagatelle|C]]</sub> 00:20, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

::* I am done adding superlikely notes to both the index pages and actual adventures. I am thinking of doing the same with [[Combat Frequency#Scheduled Quest Adventures|scheduled]] adventures, if no one objects. --[[User:Muhandes|Muhandes]] 11:55, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

::* I added notes for [[Combat Frequency#Scheduled Quest Adventures|scheduled]] adventures as well, excluding [[The Worm Wood]] adventures. I think people going for these adventures are going to read all about the mechanics first anyway. I wanted to add a note to delay() adventures as well, but I am not aware of any definitive list of these adventures. If this is the case, then this is all done and the discussion can be archived.  --[[User:Muhandes|Muhandes]] 15:35, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

==Navigation Block==
I'd really love it if the navigation box on every page could have the current game date as a link to [[Kingdom of Loathing Calendar]]. Or at least that link. I end up going to the main page and clicking the link from there whenever I want the calendar. For someone like me, that's the only time I visit the main page. I think the calendar deserves better visibility. --{{User:Club/sig}} 21:16, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

== Hats ==

I think with the advent of the Tea Party thing, it might be useful to have a "Category:Hats (By Name Length)" and have a bot go to all hat pages and category tag them with "Category:Hats (By Name Length)|<N>, <Name>". Yes/No? --[[User:MindlessGames|RoyalTonberry]] 21:27, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
*How about just adding "name length" and/or "Mad Tea Party Effect" sortable column(s) to the [[Hats]] page? --[[User:Itsatrap|Itsatrap]] 22:36, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
**Oh hey, look, Fig Bucket went and added the name length to the chart already.  --[[User:Itsatrap|Itsatrap]] 22:54, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
***Umm, yeah, didn't mean to step on any discussion-toes, just seemed like a minor change. --[[User:Fig bucket|Fig bucket]] 23:03, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
****Not a problem. Easier and cleaner than what I was suggesting, I think. --[[User:MindlessGames|RoyalTonberry]] 23:18, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

== Secret Tropical Island Volcano Lair foes ==

The foes in the first phase of the Secret Tropical Island Volcano Lair all share the following:
* Using a [[divine champagne popper]] or [[Creepy Grin]] and I suppose the other foe begone skills fails and gives the following message: 
: As you leave the area, you catch sight of your opponent in the distance. Apparently it's realized that there isn't much of anywhere to run to on this little island, and is sheepishly wandering back to where it was before. 
* Using [[Transcendent Olfaction]] fails and gives the following message: 
: You take a deep breath, and start coughing. You sensitive nasal passages are only picking up sulphur from the nearby volcano. 

Where should this be added? I don't want to add it to all 18(?) foes.--[[User:Muhandes|Muhandes]] 23:55, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
*You could add notes to the skill/item pages. Although, if the class of mechanics like that gets any larger, it may make more sense to add [[Adventure Queue]] to See Also and just explain it there. --Bagatelle<sup>[[User talk:Bagatelle|T]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/Bagatelle|C]]</sub> 00:20, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

== Clan Cleanups? Yeah, Right ==

So, you guys nuked the Otori page, claiming you would be doing the same to all clan pages and that you were completely in the right and acting impartially? So please tell me how 4 MONTHS later, this travesty of a clan page still exists? http://kol.coldfront.net/thekolwiki/index.php/The_Rye. And none of the others have been touched? You admins seem to be a bunch hypocrites and liars. Is the 'power' of being an admin going to your head? If you don't want to be discredited, and made to look like idiots, then do what you say you're going to when you're justifying your actions. It's a disgrace. --[[User:Psyko|Psyko]]

I would personally prefer to see Otori's original page back in full. It's an active clan, containing some pretty prominent personalities and with a great deal of public activity and events. It should be up to a member of the clan, and ONLY a member of the clan, to decide what goes on a clan's own page, if the clan is active. -- [[User:JLE|JLE]]

Well i agree with JLE on the whole it's up to you thing. If you want to revert the [[Otori]] page back to its old revision just look here [http://kol.coldfront.net/thekolwiki/index.php?title=Otori&action=history Here]--{{User:Icon315/sig}} 23:01, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

I'd have happily modified the page and made it a lot more user friendly - the vast majority of that page was there before. However, deleting it all was completely the wrong way to go about things. --[[user:Psyko|Psyko]]

Personally, I would like to see clan pages trimmed down immensely; if a clan wants a thorough page, it should go on their own website.  That said, though, any clan page "cleanup" should be done to all or none.  Anything else is just unprofessional. --[[User:LegendaryBard|LegendaryBard]] 05:01, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

I also much prefer an extremely short and concise version.  Yes, cut them all down.  Or delete them entirely; there's already a clan directory after all. --[[User:Fig bucket|Fig bucket]] 05:32, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

We earned the right to a page with our work in the COMMUNITY the day Jick made us a custom item. I'd like to know when the Wiki stopped being about preserving history or serving the community. This isn't Wikipedia - its meant to be for a game that is unique because of it's community. Yet you guys only seem interested in how much hack n' slash you can weild on pages concerning on of the most important things in the KoL community - Clans. --[[User:Psyko|Psyko]]
#No reason why including a link to your own website doesn't solve the community aspect of clans. There's also no reason why the history of a clan can't be included on their own website either.
#Obama's months late on Gitmo. He doesn't look like a hypocrite or look like "power went to his head". Lay off on the incivility; "It will get done" and "We will do it right now" are significantly different. --{{User:Coolguy00001/sig}} 07:50, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

First off, I'll apologise for that, but I'm very irritated. And did you really just compare being a Wiki editor to running the country? --[[User:Psyko|Psyko]]
:You're trying to bring the rest of the clan pages down to your level and take a giant shit on them.  Please explain why you think this is a good idea.  Also Hitler. [[User:The minibus|The minibus]]
::The point of the comparison was that someone under much more scrutiny has done the same thing, and even then doesn't face such attacks (conservatives may be saying power went to his head over healthcare, but definitely not gitmo). If someone under more scrutiny doesn't face such incivility, there shouldn't be any reason less important matter should. --{{User:Coolguy00001/sig}} 16:14, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

The problem with cleaning up the clan pages is that someone needs to do the work (and some of us are distracted by non-KoL-wiki stuff from time to time). It just happened faster with the Otori page because the clan is more visible/inluential, and so the page gets more attention from editors. And yeah, I still think the other clan pages are stuffed full of random clan-specific minutae that most players probably don't really care about. --[[User:Itsatrap|Itsatrap]] 22:49, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

I don't see why clan pages are even necessary at all when the directory already exists, and allows for links to individual clan pages. I don't think that whether or not a clan is allowed a full wiki page should be based on how many other people like the clan, or how much meat they've given away.--[[User:P4n1q|P4n1q]] 07:02, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

A clan page for a small clan was recently deleted. What criteria must be met for a clan to be allowed to have a clan page on the wiki?--[[User:P4n1q|P4n1q]] 03:17, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
*A clan is allowed a clan page on the wiki if their names are [[Iocaine Powder]], [[Jicken Wings]], [[Noblesse Oblige]], [[Otori]], [[The Rye]], [[The Ninjapiratezombierobot clan]], or [[Warehouse 23]]. These clans have been around the longest (i.e. 5 digit player id days)/are big/have items associated with them. The Secret Society of Leaf Catchers is just not important enough - snowball effect justifies its nonexistence. --{{User:Coolguy00001/sig}} 04:32, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
*High profile clans with large impact on the social aspects of the game, I'd say. --[[User:TechSmurf|TechSmurf]] 05:38, 28 March 2010 (UTC)


== Add-On Helper page ==

Since there is a page for [[List of all Greasemonkey Scripts (Categorized)|GM Scripts]] which could help benefit our game play, I was thinking off making a page of Firefox's, Internet Explorer's, and other browser's Add-Ons which could help us out. For Example, An [https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/1865 Add-on for Firefox] that brought the loading time of a Wiki page from 1-2 minutes to a few seconds. we can name a whole lot of them, but only those which will benefit us.{{User:Icon315/sig}}15:33, 31 March 2010
*No. It just so happens that the wiki is supported by ads, and encouraging a large portion of the KoL playing populace to block ads is not going to help the wiki. --{{User:Coolguy00001/sig}} 04:39, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

== Familiar Arena Inability Symbols ==
My apologies if this isn't the best place to stick this, but I couldn't think of a better place (feel free to point me at a better Talk page if one exists).  I would really appreciate it if familiars who are unable to compete in the arena used a different symbol than the X used for events a familiar is terrible at, or if that symbol (for events a familiar is terrible at) was changed and the X was used just for non-Arena familiars.  Familiars who are terrible at all events have Xs across the board, which always gives me the quick reaction of "Oh, this familiar can't compete in the Arena". --[[User:LegendaryBard|LegendaryBard]] 18:18, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

== Unobtainables ==

I think we should create a page listing all the unobtainable items and could have gotten them. --{{User:Icon315/sig}}20:27, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

*Sounds like it is covered already at [[Rare Items]]. --{{User:Club/sig}} 21:29, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

== Timeouts ==

A number of people have been complaining about timeouts editing the [[Crown of Thrones]] page. Myself, I saw them after filling out the captcha box. Here's the error message I was getting (spaces added for wrapping):

Fatal error: Maximum execution time of 30 seconds exceeded in exceeded in /home/coldfront/ domains/kol.coldfront.net /public_html/thekolwiki/ includes/ProfilerStub.php on line 2920

--{{User:Club/sig}} 20:14, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
*Yeah, I experienced something similar when editing the [[Rare Items]] page, although I was able to work around it by editing small(er) sections of the page instead of editing the whole thing. --[[User:Itsatrap|Itsatrap]] 23:56, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Still happening. There are at least four changes from the talk page that need to go into [[Crown of Thrones]]. Today's error was different, but still a timeout (spaces added for wrapping) :

Fatal error: Maximum execution time of 30 seconds exceeded in /home/coldfront/ domains/kol.coldfront.net/ public_html/thekolwiki/ includes/parser/ Preprocessor_DOM.php on line 858

--{{User:Club/sig}} 20:05, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

== Redundant info in location pages. ==

Now that there are data pages for locations in the game which have info such as unlock requirements, location in container documents and min stat, the info is not needed at the top of the zone page anymore.  A couple examples: [[The Sleazy Back Alley]] the info for its location is in two spots on that page, for [[The Red Queen's Garden]] both its location and the requirement to adventure there are on the page twice.  Should the info that is now found in the location data pages be removed from the main location pages? --[[User:CheezyBob|CheezyBob]] 20:00, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

== Buggy Page ==

Is anyone else experiencing difficulties accessing the [[atomic vector plotter]] page? Search throws an error on it, though I can navigate via the page URL. However, once I land on the page it'll throw a 404 on trying to edit it or its discussion page. --Bagatelle<sup>[[User talk:Bagatelle|T]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/Bagatelle|C]]</sub> 03:12, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

*Same thing here. The wiki seems to be running slow overall atm, so maybe (hopefully) a temporary issue. --[[User:Lordebon|Lordebon]] 03:21, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
*This and the timeout issues people were reporting earlier (for the crown of thrones in particular) seem like they'd be related.  Maybe one of the coldfront admins is making some updates/changes to things.  If this seems to persist into tomorrow, or yet another strange issue occurs, we should probably try contacting [[User:Jinya|Jinya]] or another one of the server admins to see if they can shed light on the situation for us.  --[[User:Flargen|Flargen]] 03:32, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
* I'm not getting 404s but 403s (Forbidden) on the page(s) Bagatelle mentioned. --[[User:JRSiebz|JRSiebz]] ([[User talk:JRSiebz|&#x260E;]]|[[Special:Contributions/JRSiebz|&#167;]]|[[Special:Listusers/sysop|&#8225;]]) 06:12, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
*:403 Forbidden<br />You don't have permission to access /thekolwiki/index.php/Special:Search on this server.<br />  Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.
**For about a half-hour yesterday I couldn't get to the wiki at all. No response on port 80 or to pings. There are still changes to the Crown of Thrones that I can't put into the page, because I get timeout errors (see above). --{{User:Club/sig}} 18:39, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
*For the record, the atomic vector plotter page seems to be failing because a query parameter contains the word "atom". Probably modSecurity at work ''yet again'' (see /archive5 and /archive6 for other examples of similar problems). --{{User:Quietust/sig}} 20:47, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
**Probably the same reason why I just had problems with [[Anatomical Injuries|An'''atom'''ical Injuries]], eh? --[[User:Timrem|TimRem]] 21:49, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
***Yep, definitely so.  --[[User:Flargen|Flargen]] 01:17, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
****It's possible to edit some of those pages, but it's very tricky - I was able to update [[Data:Atomic vector plotter]] by changing the URL to "At%6fmic_vector_plotter" and then manually post the result to a similar URL. --{{User:Quietust/sig}} 21:24, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

== Salty Mouth ==

Does anyone else find it a bit superfluous to have the Salty Mouth effect included with every beer? All it does is add "Man, you really needed that" to the consumption message, so I find repeating the initial message along with that to be a bit excessive. I was thinking that, instead of repeating the text, including in the notes "this beer is affected by [[Salty Mouth]]", and have the additional text added to the effect description page. Any thoughts? --[[User:Erich|Erich]] 00:46, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

:Agree, I was thinking this the other day.  --[[User:Starwed|Starwed]] 19:32, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

== Download wiki ==

Is there a way I can get a data dump from the wiki? I can use an external program to scrape for information fairly easily, but that's kind of annoying to do. [[User:Nadando|Nadando]] 20:36, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
*There is [[Special:Export|this page]], if it helps. --[[User:JRSiebz|JRSiebz]] ([[User talk:JRSiebz|&#x260E;]]|[[Special:Contributions/JRSiebz|&#167;]]|[[Special:Listusers/sysop|&#8225;]]) 04:38, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
*There is also some sort of API, although I've never used it.  You can read some [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/API documentation], but god only knows if this wiki is configured such that you can use it.  At  least the api.php page exists, which is promising. --[[User:Starwed|Starwed]] 06:53, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

== Crown of Thrones ==

The [[Crown of Thrones]] page needs work and trying to edit it times out. Here's my three part proposal for how to fix it.

# Put the smaller alternative enchantment table currently on the [[Talk:Crown of Thrones#Alternate_Enchantment_Table|talk page]] on the main page.
# Put the individual familiar messages on individual familiar pages, as outlined on [[Talk:Established Standards: Familiar Pages]].
# Create a few pages for individual familiar messages to be linked off of Crown of Thrones, in the same way hat messages are linked from the [[Mad Hatrack]]: [[Mad Hatrack Messages (A-E)|(A-E)]], [[Mad Hatrack Messages (F-N)|(F-N)]], and [[Mad Hatrack Messages (O-Z)|(O-Z)]].

For the current familiar names, A-F (42 familiars), G-O (39 familiars), and P-Z (43 familiars) looks like a good breakdown. --{{User:Club/sig}} 22:51, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
*I've e-mailed [[User:Jinya|Jinya]] about this timeout issue and the vector plotter issue.  So hopefully we'll get a fix and/or some official word on those issues relatively soon.  --[[User:Flargen|Flargen]] 00:47, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
**Out of curiousity, where does this stand?--[[User:Foggy|Foggy]] 17:04, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
***Vector plotter was being looked into last I heard.  And Jinya had tried to reproduce the crown problem, but to no avail.  Perhaps because it was tested through an admin or higher account.  Hadn't heard anything beyond/after that.  I will try to look into doing the reworks on the page soon.  --[[User:Flargen|Flargen]] 19:05, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

I've put the talk page's table onto the main page.  Hopefully you won't have troubles editing that one.  I'm making the call to move the actual combat messages to the particular familiar pages.  Though if anyone wants to chime in real quick if they'd rather see them all on a couple of pages like the Hatrack messages, now's the time to do so.  --[[User:Flargen|Flargen]] 04:55, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
*I'm intending right now to move the messages to the familiar pages in the fashion demonstrated at [[Underworld Bonsai]].  References from the CoT page will also need to be moved.  Anyone trying to find the messages from the old CoT table can use the history of said page.  --[[User:Flargen|Flargen]] 05:04, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm glad to see this work getting done. I had plans to do it myself, but of late I find that I get a lot of timeouts just loading pages from the wiki. I don't see a lot of other complaints here, so it might just be me. --{{User:Club/sig}} 02:40, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

*You're welcome. ;) Finished familiars 3-61, and aiming to finish the rest by tonight. [[User:Argus|Argus]] 03:53, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
**Yeah, thanks for doing that, my hands were aching just from thinking about doing the familiars myself.  --[[User:Flargen|Flargen]] 04:01, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

== Arcade subpages ==

There's a bunch of them now, but what category should they get put under? Locations seems a bit off.--[[User:Toffile|Toffile]] 13:58, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
*How much is a bunch?  I haven't looked at the arcade stuff much, but isn't a lot of it basically non-combat adventures?  --[[User:Flargen|Flargen]] 18:35, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
**We're at around 30 or 40ish right now, with 3 games still to come. They're not really non-combat or choice adventure, at least in the traditional sense.--[[User:Toffile|Toffile]] 20:20, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
***I suppose we could create a new category for them.  "Arcade Games" perhaps?  --[[User:Flargen|Flargen]] 16:57, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

== Effects of all Skills now having Images ==

*Since that all (existing) skills now have images, a few (minor?) concerns come to mind.  The first is that we probably should add metadata to skill pages like the effect pages, where "name" and "image" are specified.  It's a little complicated and template:skill would need a create metadata page if one does not exist, like item and effect do, etc.  Also that would make the [[Template:ListItem|list/stack/inline item templates]] work with skills, like they already to with items, familiars and effects.<br />TimRem asked on [[Template talk:Sauce]] if the [[recipe]] ([[:Category:Crafting Templates|crafting]]) templates should use the new skill images instead of the ones we chose as "best fit" (not the item/locations related recipes but the skill specific ones). So, looking at [[recipe]], the [[:Category:Crafting Templates|templates]] for Advanced Cocktailcrafting, Superhuman Cocktailcrafting, Salacious Cocktailcrafting, Pastamastery, Advanced Saucecrafting, The Way of Sauce, Deep Saucery, Really Expensive Jewelrycrafting, Super-Advanced Meatsmithing, Advanced Cocktailcrafting, and Armorcraftiness would all need to be updated.  One sad note is that the [[Template talk:Expensivejewelry|image I made for Really Expensive Jewelrycrafting]] would be no longer needed *sniff*, but I guess that's ok. :-)  So either we change all these images, possibly confusing some people used to the old recipe images for a while, or we leave them as they are now and answer the question "why are the recipe images different than the in-game skill images" from now until the end of time.  I vote to rip the band-aid off quickly now and get it over with.  This will cause two problems, though; (Meatsmithing and Super-Advanced Meatsmithing) and (Cocktailcrafting and Advanced Cocktailcrafting) would now have the same images, we'd need a new way to differentiate between those versions of crafting.  We could ask Jick to shiny the advanced versions, like put [[precious piercing post]] style lines around 'em or change them all together, we could shiny them ourselves (but making the skill page image and in-recipe slightly different) like i did for xjewelry ([[File:pliers.gif]] -> [[File:xpliers.gif]]), or somehow come up with other images to use for Cocktailcrafting and Meatsmithing (besides the cocktailcrafting kit and the tenderizing hammer, even though they make the most sense).<br />Just for easy reference, all the current recipe/crafting templates are located in {{CatLink|Crafting Templates}} and are shown on [[recipe]] (which makes it easy to see them all at once, for duplicates, etc.) Thoughts anyone? --[[User:JRSiebz|JRSiebz]] ([[User talk:JRSiebz|&#x260E;]]|[[Special:Contributions/JRSiebz|&#167;]]|[[Special:Listusers/sysop|&#8225;]]) 03:46, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
**I already updated most of the crafting template images. Aside from: Advanced Cocktail Crafting, Super Meatsmithing (their images are already used for the base crafting skill); Trancendental Noodlecrafting (wasn't touched because you don't actually use it to craft.); Really Expensive Jewelrycrafting (because the shimmering pliers look better than the ring).--[[User:Toffile|Toffile]] 04:03, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
**Oh and Pulverize because I think the Malus makes more sense than the hammer in use. Too similar to the Grimacite smithing one.--[[User:Toffile|Toffile]] 04:08, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
Regarding skill metadata pages, I copied it over from the effect templates, seems to work right, but now data pages need to be created for all the skills, except the few I tested on, just copy the info on the page for a skill's name/image, follow the new create metadata link, and fill it in the template.  Anyone can do a few, anything will help. I got the ball rolling, when I have time a do a few more here and there.  Hopefully, I'll remember to update the [[Established Standards]] skill section and clean up few other loose ends later on. --[[User:JRSiebz|JRSiebz]] ([[User talk:JRSiebz|&#x260E;]]|[[Special:Contributions/JRSiebz|&#167;]]|[[Special:Listusers/sysop|&#8225;]]) 06:17, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
:I think I've created metadata pages for all the skills, though I've updated [[template:skill]] with a temporary category in which any skills without metadata pages will be placed once the job queue empties. So many captchas! --[[User:Timrem|timrem]] 17:27, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
::I had missed a few, such as the old Pastamancer skills (like [[Cone of Whatever]]) since they didn't appear in [[skills by number]]. I'm confident now that anything using [[template:skill]] has a metadata page, with the exception of [[Established Standards: Skill Pages]]. --[[User:Timrem|timrem]] 23:47, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

==Rounding off Drop Rates==
I know there's been a discussion on this ''somewhere'', but I can't for the life of me find it. Anyway. A lot of the drop rates seem like they can be rounded off-- for instance, most of the drop rates in the HitS hover around 30%, and Jick has a fondness for round numbers. It looks like the monsters in [[The Black Forest]] have already been rounded off. I think it's been done in a few other places, but again, I can't find them. --[[User:TechSmurf|TechSmurf]] 05:30, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

It seems sloppy. I don't like it. If something is listed as a 28.5% drop, and it is rounded to 30%, I might run +234% items and not get the drop, which would not be possible if it were really 30% base. I have not been involved in any item drop spading, but I'm guessing that there is good reason a 28.5% drop is 28.5% and not 30%.--[[User:P4n1q|P4n1q]] 08:11, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

*The reason, as I recall it, is that the Wiki is, as much as possible, for the stating of observed factual information, not for random guessing and estimation.  Yes, it is very likely that a 29.1% observed drop rate is listed as 30% in the database, but if that data was collected by brute force (e.g. via Yiab's massive efforts), it's entirely possible that the real drop rate is 32%, or 25%, or some other nearby number that is not 30%.  Speculation that the number "is probably really 30" does not belong on the item's main page, where only actual facts are supposed to be represented.  --[[User:Hellion|Hellion]] 17:05, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
**you're not seriously objecting to [http://kol.coldfront.net/thekolwiki/index.php?title=Possessed_wine_rack&curid=27963&diff=432815&oldid=422974 this edit], are you? i realise that things are seldom so clear cut, but, really. and if you're going to talk about facts then shouldn't drop rates have ranges, giving explicit tolerances and margins of error? "jick likes round numbers" is no more arbitrary than "this is what i calculated the drop rate was after i stopped testing." --[[User:Evilkolbot|Evilkolbot]] 20:14, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
**There isn't really a reason. If a 29.1% observed rate is possibly a 25% real rate, who knows? But Jick liking round numbers is something from the radio shows, I think. But but we don't know what PRNG he uses. --[[User:Raijinili|Raijinili]] 05:26, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

== Bad Moon Instant Karma ==

On the Instant Karma page, it says "If an Instant Karma is discarded before a BM run, it will go inside the smoldering box."

Does anyone know if you can acquire more than 3 Instant Karma at the beginning of a run after BM?

This seems possible with 2-3 Instant Karma in the smoldering box, and then 2 more from the BM run (nemesis and freeing King Ralph at level 13, but I was wondering if anyone has actually proven this to be true or not. [[User:Addiejd|Addiejd]] 13:35, 29 July 2010 (UTC)addiejd


:Why would it be special for Bad Moon? From [[Instant Karma#Notes|the warning here]], we know that discarding more than 3 karma in your current run will only get you three at the start of your next life. --[[User:Timrem|timrem]] 22:38, 28 July 2010 (UTC)


::I am aware of that; I think you might have misread my question (I also quoted the page you linked, so obviously I saw it). There are 2-3 Karma in the box which will still be in the box in the run after BM, PLUS the 2 Karma discarded DURING the BM run that would be in the run after BM. Therefore, after opening the box there would be 4-5 Karma. What I am asking is if this is possible. [[User:Addiejd|Addiejd]] 13:35, 29 July 2010 (UTC)addiejd
:::Of course it is, just like you can pull as many Instant Karma as you want from Hagnks.  Perhaps you are thinking that you get the smoldering box at the beginning of the run ''after'' BM?  The box is where your awards from the ''previous'' run go, to allow you to access them once you free the king in BM.  (Initially, you couldn't access Hagnk's in BM even after you completed the run.)--[[User:Starwed|Starwed]] 16:09, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

==Mathematical Symbols==
What is the consensus here.  For mathematical operations, do people prefer using the symbols, such as {{cl|4.5}}, or is it better to always use text, like ceil(4.5)? --[[User:Fig bucket|Fig bucket]] 00:39, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
*I think the symbols look cleaner than the text. --[[User:TechSmurf|TechSmurf]] 02:26, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
*I also like the symbols, but I can definitely understand if they would confuse more people than they wouldn't. If the goal is to be more accessible to people, I think that the text might be the way to go. I think that the goal is clarity.  Floor and Ceil symbols are clear to me and you guys, but are they clear to the majority of the users of the wiki?  I really don't know. --[[User:MindlessGames|RoyalTonberry]] 03:15, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
**If i hadn't read all the talk pages and everything, i would have no idea what all the symbols mean, i think we should go back to the text.----[[User:Icon315|Icon315&#9813;]] ([[User talk:Icon315|&#9742;]]|[[Special:Contributions/Icon315|♤]]) 03:32, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
***"rounded up" might be nice, for those who don't like mathz.  --[[User:Deus Ex Machina|Deus Ex Machina]] ([[User talk:Deus Ex Machina|Talk]]) 04:03, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
**I've always thought "floor" and "ceiling" were just as opaque as symbols. "Rounded up/down" seem like the most accessible terms (as the edit that just sniped me says). --[[User:TechSmurf|TechSmurf]] 04:08, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

I think in most cases, the reader won't care whether numbers are rounded up or down.  It's occasionally important, but writing out floor() and ceiling() everywhere just makes the wiki harder to read without adding much of a benefit.  The advantage of the symbols is that even if you don't know what they mean, you can still understand what's going on with the formula... and anyone who cares will quickly learn what the symbols mean.  In simple cases noting that a number is rounded up or down is probably best, but there are quite a few places where that won't work.  (Inside of tables, for instance.)  

Anyway, I think the current consensus is to at least use a template anywhere it's necessary to use the functions, so we can format-wrangle at our leisure.  I created a test for floor at [[:Template:Fl]] and there's now one for ceiling at [[:Template:Ceil]].  Would anyone be opposed to changing the current [[:Template:Cl]] so we can be more symmetric?  (We could just move it to [[:Template:CatLink]] or something.)--[[User:Starwed|Starwed]] 14:57, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

*Add my vote for symbols.--{{User:Club/sig}} 18:46, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
*"The advantage of the symbols is that even if you don't know what they mean, you can still understand what's going on with the formula" - Um. Your point is that if someone doesn't know what something means and if they see it, they'll know what it means? I really can't get behind that, I'm sorry. I understand floor and ceil because of my engineering background, but I would rather we stick to rounding up or down.--[[User:Toffile|Toffile]] 19:58, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
**i have to agree. the "ceiling" symbols look to me like someone's got the line spacing wrong and square brackets have had their bottoms cut off. the mouseover is a help, but not that much since the phrasing is clumsy. apart from the awesomeness of maths symbols, is there a reason why people think "rounded up/down" doesn't cut it? --[[User:Evilkolbot|Evilkolbot]] 20:36, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
*I like the symbols.  Other than google-ability I'm not sure that ceil/floor is so much better for those who don't like math (and a note as in the current ceil template seems better).  In many/most? cases there is also a textual explanation for the less-math-inclined accompanying even simple formula, so I don't see the value in limiting the symbol set for the actual formula, which is more targeted at those who know how to interpret a formula.  And taking over [[:Template:Cl]] is a good idea. --[[User:Fig bucket|Fig bucket]] 20:33, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
*I do NOT like that {{tl|cl}} was moved to {{tl|CatLink}}. {{tl|cl}} is a sister template of {{tl|tl}} and are based on and named the same as actual wikipedia templates.  Now the naming scheme is off. It being {{tl|CatLink}} defeats the whole purpose of it being shorthand.  I believe the best option would be to leave {{tl|cl}} and {{tl|tl}} named as they were, make the annotating templates be named {{tl|ceil}} and {{tl|floor}} and move the current {{tl|floor}} (which actually calculates floor()) {{tl|calcFloor}}, {{tl|dofloor}} or {{tl|floor()}} or something.  All "sister" templates should use the same naming convention, as no one wanted to use fl and ceil, no one should want to use tl and CatLink. On second thought, {{tl|floor}} should prob stay as it is, and the annotation templates might be better named {{tl|annotFloor}} and {{tl|annotCeil}} as it is more descriptive as what they actually do (and not heinously long).  Using cl/ceil or fl/floor seems to imply they actually calculate something... which they don't. Also moving the current {{tl|floor}} might cause significant advanced template editing.  --[[User:JRSiebz|JRSiebz]] ([[User talk:JRSiebz|&#x260E;]]|[[Special:Contributions/JRSiebz|&#167;]]|[[Special:Listusers/sysop|&#8225;]]) 01:27, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
**As far as the calculating floor and ceil templates, that business could actually be added to the "bug the coldfront/wiki admins to upgrade our MediaWiki installation" pile.  Floor and ceiling are native functions in more recent mediawiki languages (probably something like <nowiki>{{#floor:}}</nowiki>.  At least that was my understanding back when I/we first went looking for those functions and instead had to find a way to implement them natively.  This also applies to {{tl|sqroot}}, incidentally.  --[[User:Flargen|Flargen]] 03:19, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
**Ah, if {{tl|cl}} is based on a standard wikipedia template it probably shouldn't have been moved, even if so few pages were using it.  If we could just use floor/ceiling and get native functions for the actual math templates that seems like it would be ideal.  --[[User:Starwed|Starwed]] 02:02, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

== User page deletion, "User Cruft" ==

It seems like it might be good to have a slightly more mainstream discussion of this, rather than it happening at [[TheKolWiki:Pages_for_deletion/archive6#Snapshot_Templates|pages for deletion]].  What's the rationale behind this?  It makes absolutely zero sense to me.  It harms the wiki in no way that I can divine for folks to have these vanity pages, so why go out of the way to forbid it?  --[[User:Starwed|Starwed]] 13:30, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Let me try to explain it, someone pays for this site, they pay for memory use. so if there is useless info on here, i don't think they would enjoy it. also why would you want to have a whole bunch of crap in your profile if you can do it automatically and easier somewhere else, somewhere created specifically for this purpose.----[[User:Icon315|Icon315&#9813;]] ([[User talk:Icon315|&#9742;]]|[[Special:Contributions/Icon315|♤]]) 15:25, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
*Even if a user page is deleted, it's still stored in history, like all pages. So that doesn't really do anything to clear up the memory use. Have the Coldfront admins ever said anything about the memory usage, either way? I'd imagine the handful of users with large pages take up a negligible amount. I can't say I was a fan of the userpage templates that spawned the whole discussion, but I do like having a ''customizable'' user page. --[[User:TechSmurf|TechSmurf]] 16:49, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
**It does, however, stop further excessive storage use, both in that every update to a 220KB page uses 220KB on the server, and that new users may follow the precedent of creating a huge page with all their character info. If we establish now that user pages + subpages are not to be more than 10KB total, we'll have that standard to point to whenever someone creates an excessive page. I'm in favour of this. --[[User:Timrem|timrem]] 17:17, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
*This whole idea of saving the poor, beleaguered server is crap and I constantly find myself having to argue about why it has NOTHING to do with why this should be done.  People keep grasping at that straw-man and it bugs me.  It is an issue of wiki scope and slippery slopes.  Same as with Kinks' furious bot-page rage.  The closest the other argument gets to being valid is that it removes a 30-mile-long list of a mile-long list of people making edits to their user pages so we can actually see what is going on with the REAL wiki.  The volume of vanity page edits was just insane relative to the number of main space edits.  This is, once again, not wikipedia, where large vanity pages are largely ignorable do to immensity of numbers.  This is the kolwiki, and things have to be done a little differently because our size and scope are wholly different.  --[[User:Flargen|Flargen]] 19:14, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
*Bragging pages don't inform players about the game, and they don't help players play the game better (in general; and I don't mean pages which are bragging AND helpful advice). That doesn't mean they're harmful and should be removed, just that they just don't have a place in the wiki. Using the wiki to list your KoL achievements is a step above using the wiki to list your WoW achievements: more related, but still not relevant<br/>
So yeah, they're harmful because of slippery slope and recent changes. You can fix the recent changes thing by changing what it displays by default, and slippery slopes arguments are not decisive. But I think everyone would agree that if 95% of the edits you made in the last week were about your e-peen, someone should probably yell at you. So ''what'' about that is wrong?<br/>
And is Mafia being used to edit the wiki? I think scripted e-peen edits should be right out. --[[User:Raijinili|Raijinili]] 11:35, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
:I guess I just don't have a problem with people using the wiki to display their e-peen.  I barely notice the userspace edits when browsing Recent Changes either.  But it does seem like consensus is anti "user cruft", whether I grok the ''why'' or not doesn't really matter. --[[User:Starwed|Starwed]] 02:05, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

== Adding quests to location pages? ==

Sometimes I want to look up a quest, but I don't know it by name. So I would look up things that are the most related to the quests, such as the location(s) for the quest, or in some cases the item that triggers it ([[empty agua de vida bottle]], the antique maps). Should there be a standard about quests in location pages, or even into the location's infoboxes?

Relatedly, quest items: should their pages point out what quest they're items for? Yes, I know some of them aren't. --[[User:Raijinili|Raijinili]] 11:52, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

:There actually is a quest field for the infoboxes.  I imagine it's could be used to better effect.  Look at the box for [[The Spooky Forest]], for instance... it has one of the quests for that location, but not the other.  --[[User:Starwed|Starwed]] 15:44, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

== Noncombat organisation ==

It's pretty hard to understand how the noncombats in an area are structured just by glancing at a location page.  I'd like to start to clean this up, and as a first step I think tagging special adventures is a good idea.  It should be obvious what's a clover/semi-rare/badmoon adventure without reading any text on a page.

I created a mockup at [[Template:Test]], does this seem reasonable?  It would add a "tag" parameter to the Adventure template, which if used adds an icon before the adventure name.  Could auto-generate the notes field as well, if we still want that.  Are there any classes of adventures I've missed that should be tagged?

The next thing I'd like to tackle are special sequences of adventures, like those that appear in the new Friars quests. I think they should probably be graphically grouped together, though I'm not quite sure how.  Any ideas?  --[[User:Starwed|Starwed]] 01:55, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

How about UR advenures?----[[User:Icon315|Icon315&#9813;]] ([[User talk:Icon315|&#9742;]]|[[Special:Contributions/Icon315|♤]]) 01:59, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
:Well, those are all combats, but it would probably be good to do something similar for them.  (And the couple of semi-rare monsters.)  Possibly an icon for bosses would be good too.--[[User:Starwed|Starwed]] 02:08, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
::I like the template. It'd also be nice to have a way to differentiate scheduled noncombats from normal ones, though that may be a bit more complicated. I was thinking of making a category for boss-type monsters (though not all of them are technically bosses). --[[User:TechSmurf|TechSmurf]] 02:51, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
:::Well, we do have [[:Category:Bosses]].  We could just generalize the notion of "boss", probably, and stick them in there.  And I would suggest using {{tl|click}} for the extra images Starwed's trying to add to the template, so they can either be unclickable or will link to the special mechanic they denote (i.e. <nowiki>{{click|image=fortune.gif|link=Semi-Rare Adventures}}</nowiki>).  Linking makes them more productive and meaningful, and I've always disliked pointlessly clickable images; using {{tl|click}} you can always avoid both of those.  --[[User:Flargen|Flargen]] 03:09, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
::::For some reason the click template was causing problems with the switch statement, so I just used plain image links.  I'm sure there's a way to do it, though.  
::::Scheduled and superlikely adventures should be noted, but I'm not sure if a simple icon tag works best for them. --[[User:Starwed|Starwed]] 03:45, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
:::::There, I fixed it, works just fine with {{tl|click}}.  You were probably being too liberal with your use of whitespacing, should've included a default case, and/or forgot a bracket or something when calling click.  --[[User:Flargen|Flargen]] 04:14, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Just looked at the template, very nice. A few image/icon suggestions for other adventure types:
* Scheduled adventures: [[File:Watch.gif]](Watch.gif) or [[File:Clock.gif]](Clock.gif)
* Quest-related adventures: [[File:Map.gif]](Map.gif), [[File:Meatcar.gif]](Meatcar.gif), [[File:Palette.gif]](Palette.gif) or [[File:Macguffin.gif]](Macguffin.gif)
* Ultra-rares: [[File:Falconcrest.gif]](Falconcrest.gif) or [[File:Hypnodisk.gif]](Hypnodisk.gif)
--[[User:Philmasterplus|Philmasterplus]] 11:41, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

I like the idea of grouping the linked choice adventures together.  Another thing that might be nice is to have monsters that are encountered only through choice adventures be noted visually somehow --[[User:CheezyBob|CheezyBob]] 19:29, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
*There should be an indent parameter on the relevant templates that will push them to the right a little, naturally suggesting dependency.  But I think in some zones it is possible to encounter a monster both through a choice adventure and through a regular combat.  And there's the issue of making pages too large to be reasonably useful/informative.  --[[User:Flargen|Flargen]] 22:29, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
* It would also be nice to mark turtle taming adventures: [[File:turtle.gif]] (turtle.gif) --[[User:Itsatrap|Itsatrap]] 21:50, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
**Good call on the turtles, and I guess those SC adventures should be tagged as well.  While things like scheduled/quest adventures should be somewhat visually distinct, I don't think they need the image tags -- I'd prefer to use that for adventures that have these very simple mechanisms behind them.  My idea is to make a clear cut distinction between adventures you will definitely encounter if you adventure in a zone from those you have to go looking for.  Maybe marking the special demon name adventures would make sense as well, since they occur so rarely.  --[[User:Starwed|Starwed]] 21:58, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Any further comments on this, or should I just start implementing it?  --[[User:Starwed|Starwed]] 23:06, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
*Looks good to me. The only thing thing I'd try to do different is have {{tl|Click}} use just the internal page name for title (tooltip) text rather than the full URL, but that's something lacking in {{tl|Click}}, not in your plan. --[[User:Lordebon|Lordebon]] 23:53, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Ok, I updated the {{tl|Adventure}} template, it's first bit of love in a few years.  :)  You can check out what it looks like at [[The Goatlet]].  Before adding these tags elsewhere on the wiki, should I also change the template to auto-generate the Notes fields for the five adventure types I included?  I don't see a reason not to, but there could be some subtle thing I'm missing.  (And should auto-generated notes go before or after user specified ones?)  --[[User:Starwed|Starwed]] 22:53, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Ok, been thinking about this a bit more, having noticed a few other eligible candidates. 

* Hobo Code adventures should be added to the list of things tagged. 
* What about things like the Going Postal quest?  I'd be ok with tagging them, since they have a unique trigger and kind of clutter up the zones they're in.  
*The demon name adventures don't have a trigger (they just don't occur very often), so I think I'd be against tagging them with an icon.  They ''are'' part of a zones normal logic.
* One time adventures in general should probably get a special field, since we'd almost always want a line describing what the trigger is.

While looking at the Bad Moon adventures, I realized there should probably be an "effects" field in the template along with items, meat, and stats.  Anyone opposed to that?

Finally, the template already has the ability to add indentation, but I don't see that used very often.  In places like [[The Spooky Forest]] should we use that to organize the noncombats?   --[[User:Starwed|Starwed]] 22:25, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
: I love this idea and the preliminary implementation, Starwed. The tags make things so much easier to find. Agreed on hobo codes, Going Postal, demon names, and one-time adventures. The effects thing sounds like a good idea... but there's one potential problem with keeping the [[Bad Moon]] table in sync with this new template. How will that be resolved? --[[User:Wrldwzrd89|Wrldwzrd89]] 17:41, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
The effects are already listed on each page, this would just be a way of standardizing the format.  

I went ahead and finished a mockup of the template at {{tl|Test}}, for those who want to look.  I realized two things about the turtle adventures while doing so:
* First, the three different "levels" of turtles will need separate notes.  I haven't fixed that yet.
* Second, a surprising number of turtle adventures are not actually listed at the appropriate location pages.  This includes the "generic" adventures like [[Puttin' it on Wax]] -- I'm really not sure if that type of adventure belongs on location pages or not.  Thoughts?
--[[User:Starwed|Starwed]] 07:37, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
**Those adventures aren't really tied to a location is the thing.  They're a consequence of the pheromones.  So they're not listed (or at least, I think shouldn't be), for the same reason things like flashbacks aren't listed.  --[[User:Flargen|Flargen]] 09:14, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
:Which adventure you get is determined by what zone you're in, though, even for the generic adventures, while flashbacks are not.  (I'm more playing devil's advocate here, since I think it might be unwieldy to have a full listing at each location.)  Also, just to be clear: there are some location specific turtle adventures which are not listed in the location (e.g. [[Jewel in the Rough]] is not listed at [[South of the Border]]).  Are we agreed that normal turtles ''should'' be listed?  --[[User:Starwed|Starwed]] 21:35, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Ok, pushed the updated version of the template.
* Realized we don't need multiple turtle notes -- you get the adventure regardless of whether you have turtling rods equipped, that just changes the outcome.
* I humbly suggest we don't need the particular conditions on every [[Going Postal]] adventure, since anyone doing the quest will be looking at the original page, not at each zone individually.  So I'll strip that information out when I update such adventures.  If we ever add a specific field to explain the conditions on each adventure, it can go back in.  
Keep an eye out for bugs, I suppose.  --[[User:Starwed|Starwed]] 00:10, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

I believe I've finished tagging all regular noncombats.  There are a couple of choice adventures which need tagging, though, as well as some combats.  (Such as the semi-rare adventures where you buy hobo stuff.)  I could just copy paste the code into the appropriate templates, but it seems like creating special {{tl|tagimage}} and {{tl|tagnote}} templates and moving the code there would be cleaner.  Anyone opposed to that?  --[[User:Starwed|Starwed]] 05:13, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

== New Food/Booze Quality ==

I'll probably modify {{tl|item}} to add a variable called "quality" later tonight/tomorrow.  It will work as followed (so people can update items even though the template is not updated yet). This will only apply to food and booze items. Having "quality" not declared, or a blank quality "quality=", or "quality=?" will display "unknown" and chuck the item in [[:Category:Incomplete]]. "quality=!" can for item which do not have quality, such as items which no longer exist.  Do not pass in the parenthesis or colors, for example, use as such "quality=crappy". Though we need a complete list of all qualities and their colors (as defined in-game please).  And please, when items change names, prices, descriptions, item numbers, etc.  Please note what it used to be, and until when, in the notes section.  History is important, and sometimes even interesting.  We want to stay thorough,  And the convention seems to have been that if a page has more than 2 history type notes in the notes section, they get moves into a "History" section.  Whew, spade on. --[[User:JRSiebz|JRSiebz]] ([[User talk:JRSiebz|&#x260E;]]|[[Special:Contributions/JRSiebz|&#167;]]|[[Special:Listusers/sysop|&#8225;]]) 01:29, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
{| 
|-
! quality
! color
! example
|-
| crappy
| #999999
| style="color: #999999;" | '''(crappy)'''
|-
| decent
| none (black)
| '''(decent)'''
|-
| good
| green
| style="color: green;" | '''(good)'''
|-
| awesome
| blue
| style="color: blue;" | '''(awesome)'''
|-
| EPIC 
| blueviolet
| style="color: blueviolet;" | '''(EPIC)'''
|}
*These changes are going to necessitate a lot of re-spading (some of it will be simple, like re-checking 1 full/drunk items that used to be able to give 1 adventure) and wiki reworking.  Several items we knew had fractional adventure gains (like [[Hell ramen]] and [[flute of flat champagne]]), but there may be some that either weren't known, or were suspected but never directly confirmed.  All of the "Best Foods" and booze style pages are going to have to be massively reworked.  Any pages detailing food and booze crafting are going to need to be altered accordingly.  So many headaches on the wiki end.  --[[User:Flargen|Flargen]] 01:34, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
*AND now there's also (Fancy Cooking ingredient) and (Fancy Cocktailcrafting ingredient).  So I guess along with "cook=1" and "cocktail=1" there needs to be "fcook=1" and "fcocktail=1"... or are fancycook" and "fancycocktail=1" not too long? --[[User:JRSiebz|JRSiebz]] ([[User talk:JRSiebz|&#x260E;]]|[[Special:Contributions/JRSiebz|&#167;]]|[[Special:Listusers/sysop|&#8225;]]) 01:52, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
*"quality=" is up and runnin', but I'm waiting until at least someone else... anyone else... has an opinion on "fcook" vs. "fancycook" to do the fancy ingredient tag. --[[User:JRSiebz|JRSiebz]] ([[User talk:JRSiebz|&#x260E;]]|[[Special:Contributions/JRSiebz|&#167;]]|[[Special:Listusers/sysop|&#8225;]]) 03:09, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
**Another possibility is to just retain the existing functionality and add a new "fancy=" parameter which you can set to 1 (or something else agreeable; possibly anything other than one or two particular characters) to insert the word "Fancy".  --[[User:Flargen|Flargen]] 03:14, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
**But you'd still need 2 parameters, as I think one thing could be a regular cooking ingredient and yet be a fancy cocktailcrafting ingredient, or vice versa. /me searches inventory --[[User:JRSiebz|JRSiebz]] ([[User talk:JRSiebz|&#x260E;]]|[[Special:Contributions/JRSiebz|&#167;]]|[[Special:Listusers/sysop|&#8225;]]) 03:22, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
**I thought of another idea just after I added fancycook/fancycocktail.  Right now with cook/cocktail, supplying anything (we just use "1") turns it on.  We could just use the existing variable.  For example "cook=fancy" (maybe even "cook=f" shorthand via a fallthrough switch case) for fancy cooking ingredient, and everything else that's not empty (cook=1, cook=y, cook=yes, cook-frogs) all just is cooking ingredient.  I don't think one thing can be both listed as a regular and a fancy cooking ingredient simultaneously.  If people like just changing a few "cook=1" and "cocktail=1" to "cook=fancy" and "cocktail=fancy" ("cook=f" and "cocktail=f" too?) instead, we could do that. --[[User:JRSiebz|JRSiebz]] ([[User talk:JRSiebz|&#x260E;]]|[[Special:Contributions/JRSiebz|&#167;]]|[[Special:Listusers/sysop|&#8225;]]) 06:57, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
***Oh, good idea.  Let's go with that.  And having both "=fancy" and "=f" sounds fine to me; when it's not too horrible to work out, I like making it a little bit easier and more intuitive for editors to correctly figure out what they should be tossing into it.  I should probably remember about fall-through switch cases more often, come to think of it.  --[[User:Flargen|Flargen]] 07:00, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
***I don't believe there are any. Unlikely for a crossover anyway. Fancy cocktailcrafting is limited to the 3 AC garnishes, tiny plastic sword and its skewered fruit, distilled spirits, as well as drinks made with seaodes. Fancy cooking is left to reagents, scrumdiddlyumptious solutions, dry noodles, and key limes It might be worth being robust for a future occurrence, but unless they change something and start tossing fancy on stuff that (for the most part) isn't related to a class skill, we might have concern.--[[User:Toffile|Toffile]] 07:01, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
****If there's one thing Jick has proven to us, it's that he will make that worst-case scenario a reality.  --[[User:Flargen|Flargen]] 07:03, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
*Well both "quality=crappy|decent|good|awesome|EPIC|!|?|''blank''" and "cook|cocktail=1|y|yes|f|fancy|''blank''|''anythingelse'')" are live. I've been testing all the different cases I can think of in "show preview" and they seem to work.  And here's a protip, since <code>&#123;{#ifeq:{{{var}}}|x OR y|TRUEBLOCK|FALSEBLOCK}}</code> does NOT work was desired, you can simulate it with a switch <code>&#123;{#switch:{{{var}}}|x|y=TRUEBLOCK|#default=FALSEBLOCK}}</code>. Fun times.  And I'm also proud? (sad?) of the fact that I have done this so much that I can copy a section of a template into a text file, newline and indent the hell out of it for easy mental parsing, edit it, remove the newlines/indenting, and paste it back in the template, and usually have it working right. w00t? --[[User:JRSiebz|JRSiebz]] ([[User talk:JRSiebz|&#x260E;]]|[[Special:Contributions/JRSiebz|&#167;]]|[[Special:Listusers/sysop|&#8225;]]) 07:41, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
**You are progressing well, young padowan.  Next, you must learn to do it without the intermediate newlines and indents!  Shit's hard, though.  And fall-through cases are something I knew before I became an admin, but had forgotten about the time I became one (apparently).  I wonder if there are any templates where I could have used this but didn't...  --[[User:Flargen|Flargen]] 07:46, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
***Padowan? [http://kol.coldfront.net/thekolwiki/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=rights&user=&page=&year=&month=-1 User rights log] says differently.  What's that date down there by my name, it's hard to read all the way down there near the bottom... n00b. Heh, j/k </trashtalk>. --[[User:JRSiebz|JRSiebz]] ([[User talk:JRSiebz|&#x260E;]]|[[Special:Contributions/JRSiebz|&#167;]]|[[Special:Listusers/sysop|&#8225;]]) 07:58, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
****Age is not crucial.  I have a much higher concentration of wikichlorians in my blood than you do.  --[[User:Flargen|Flargen]] 08:16, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
*****Experience FTW. I mean what good is power one has not yet learned to control.  And not to be a buzzkill, but I just thought of something that made me curse-out-loud a little... [[:Category:Beverages]]. Erg. --[[User:JRSiebz|JRSiebz]] ([[User talk:JRSiebz|&#x260E;]]|[[Special:Contributions/JRSiebz|&#167;]]|[[Special:Listusers/sysop|&#8225;]]) 08:36, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
******Though we probably don't need quality subcategories, as there are only a grand total of 12 beverages. --[[User:JRSiebz|JRSiebz]] ([[User talk:JRSiebz|&#x260E;]]|[[Special:Contributions/JRSiebz|&#167;]]|[[Special:Listusers/sysop|&#8225;]]) 08:38, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
******I'll believe that experience jive when you get your list levels correct and stop forgetting the last asterisk.  And, yeah, dang it, gotta add in the same kind of quality handling for beverages.  And, yeah, guess subcategories would be overkill.  Though we could perhaps toss them into [[:Category:Crappy Food]] etc.?  --[[User:Flargen|Flargen]] 08:41, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
******Are they all crappy? Because that's sad... poor beverages.  Could have just hardcoded in crappy then. ;)  --[[User:JRSiebz|JRSiebz]] ([[User talk:JRSiebz|&#x260E;]]|[[Special:Contributions/JRSiebz|&#167;]]|[[Special:Listusers/sysop|&#8225;]]) 09:12, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
*******There's an alternate implementation at {{tl|test}} right now that would put beverages into the relevant food quality category.  Code might be a bit more streamlined, although that doesn't necessarily mean easier to read/edit in this case (switches that are 20 lines long can be a bother).  I think I had a couple of other ideas that might cut size a bit, maybe I'll play around with those later.  --[[User:Flargen|Flargen]] 09:16, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
*******Actually, as it turns out, most of them ''aren't'' crappy.  The only quality not represented is EPIC; [[banana milkshake]] is an awesome beverage.  Although I'm not sure why it is awesome.  My impression of the quality labels would have led me to believe it was just good; perhaps it can give more than 8 adventures?  --[[User:Flargen|Flargen]] 09:32, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
*Why not set it up to automatically assign a quality rating based on the consumption range, except when manually done otherwise? I've looked through the consumables, and it appears to be the case that crappy <=1, decent>1, good>2, awesome>3, and epic>5 for adv/full. This knowledge can be used to suspect that certain consumables had decimals before that got chopped off, and so to be a clue to better-spade that consumable. --[[User:DarthDud|DarthDud]] 19:50, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
**The rest of what I said appears to be true, but further investigation appears to show that epic is >=5, not >5.--[[User:DarthDud|DarthDud]] 20:57, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
**Two problems: right now, the adventure gains and fullness/drunkenness are not (currently) stored on the data page, where we'd need them to be to do this.  Secondly, there are still a couple of violations of this rule as of my last checking: [[Cinco Mayo Lager]] and [[Antarctic Ice Tea]], for examples.  Both of those are listed as crappy in-game, but clearly should not be by the rubric.  There may or may not be an issue with making things behave well with {{plural|dusty bottle of wine}}, which are always listed as crappy regardless of rune.  I'm not opposed to storing advmin and advmax on the data page, especially since it now would have an extra use beyond computing average adventure gains.  I'd already come to the same conclusions you have (perhaps that's where you picked them up from, dunno; not the hardest thing to come up with independently), and used it to find and fix errors in the gains for items such as [[banana milkshake]].  --[[User:Flargen|Flargen]] 22:09, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
***[[Antarctic Ice Tea]] is from an NPC store. All NPC store consumables that I have look at so far are labeled crappy, regardless of how good they are. [[Cinco Mayo Lager]] presumably is labeled as such for similar reasons, as obviously Jick would not intentionally label it crappy. --[[User:DarthDud|DarthDud]] 22:45, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
****Well, more than likely the quality is hardcoded (which is basically known to be true, at least prior to this update), rather than derived internally from average adventure yields.  The average yields (per organ) are normally just a consequence of that quality attribute.  So most likely those store items and the Mayo Lager have a hardcoded quality of crappy (or no quality at all, which then defaults to crappy), but were also then given hardcoded adventure yields that are well outside the "crappy" range.  I suppose an input parameter can always be thrown in that would disable the quality vs. average yields comparison.  --[[User:Flargen|Flargen]] 23:06, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
*****They ended up fixing this shortly after I (and possibly others) sent in a bug report about it.  So it seems we can safely assume that any in-game quality which is inconsistent with the actual adventure gains is a game bug that will be remedied.  --[[User:Flargen|Flargen]] 02:56, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

=== Best Food/Drink Pages ===
*A thought occurred to me. We have  [[Best Foods With Got Milk (adventures)]] and [[Consumables/Booze]]...both of which list adventures per unit fullness/drunkeness. Since Got Milk and Ode now just add a flat 1 adventure per unit full...is it time to get rid of that now-incorrect information?--[[User:Toffile|Toffile]] 23:56, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
**The regular [[Best Foods]] pages have to be reworked as well.  Several items have had their adventure yields tweaked.  --[[User:Flargen|Flargen]] 00:00, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
***Don't forget the Bad Moon versions.  I'd be willing to take on those again once the main pages are fixed up.  Or maybe we can consolidate everything somehow?  I'd still like there to be a way to quickly look at food/booze that can only be obtained in a run vs. everything in the game.--[[User:Shoptroll|Shoptroll]] 14:03, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
****Unless I'm forgetting something, I think we can rename the Bad Moon pages to just Best Food/Booze (Hardcore).  This would require adding Hi Meins to the list of food, which isn't a big deal unless there's other recipes I'm forgetting about.--[[User:Shoptroll|Shoptroll]] 14:12, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
**I'd appreciate not having [[Consumables/Food]] and [[Consumables/Booze]] messed with until we've discerned where Ode and Milk go in the pipeline.  Since Ode and Milk can still definitely affect the end result of a Food with Fork or Booze with Frosty Mug, assuming that Ode/Milk still add on before the fork/mug do.  Additionally, would people still find it useful to have those yields in the page, even though you might just say that milk adds +15 adventures/day and Ode adds +18 or +23 per day for most people? --[[User:MindlessGames|RoyalTonberry]] 01:17, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
***That's fine and all, but my point was more that after the changes the Got Milk Best Foods (which only considers Got Milk, not forks or anything else), will now more than likely be a copy of Best Foods, with the adventure/fullness incremented by 1. Same thing with the sole Ode to Booze column on Consumables/Booze. I wasn't referring to the Ode+Mug column, sorry if that was a point of confusion. I just can't see the reason why we need to duplicate pages for a now static formula.--[[User:Toffile|Toffile]] 01:27, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
***Hellion has already altered [[Consumables]] to indicate that Milk/Ode are the LAST thing applied.  Munchies pills are still some of the first, but milk/ode were listed last.  --[[User:Flargen|Flargen]] 02:35, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
****I just spaded this, and Hellion is incorrect. Milk/ode are (still) before fork/mug. Opossum/blender are now at the very end. --[[User:DarthDud|DarthDud]] 11:41, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
**I'd like to propose renaming the existing "Tier" column to "Location" and adding the quality from the item description in as the first column.  Or color coding the table rows based on the quality if someone can find a good color scheme for that.--[[User:Shoptroll|Shoptroll]] 14:05, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
*Okay, I've updated [[Consumables]], [[Consumables/Food]], and [[Consumables/Booze]] for the recent changes.  For the tables, I basically floored maxadv, instead of letting it be a decimal, and then computed from there, and adjusted Milk/Ode.  With the main Consumables page, I fixed up all of the examples and stuff (it's a lot simpler now, woooo), as well as added things pertaining to the new information (like the Quality breakpoints).  I think perhaps we should propose that the [[Best Foods With Got Milk (adventures)]] page should be deleted, or perhaps redirected to the Consumables/Food page, since Got Milk can no longer re-arrange foods based on their adventures/fullness, they all just shift adv/full by +1.  Maybe people like the color scheme on the Best Foods with Got Milk page though? --[[User:MindlessGames|RoyalTonberry]] 02:45, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
**Well, I have something in mind for this.  First would be storing adventure and stat gains on the item data page.  A revamp of item data to work more like monster data is a possibility, but that's more of a background matter for now.  A practical upshot of this is that we could compare the adventure range with the in-game quality and automatically tag pages that have a discrepancy.  Another upshot of this would be that you should be able to create a single template that would create rows for tables such as the Best Foods ones.  And perhaps our resident table super-wizard (whose name I'm always forgetting) could make it so things work out such that the table rows all get sorted together in a nice fashions when generated this way without requiring much on the part of those cobbling the table together.  Not sure what all else he may need to do for that.  But it would make it very easy to update those tables with every new food, as then you just add a call to the row-making template with said item name and BINGO, you're done.  But, yeah, "with milk" can probably be deleted, but I think I'll keep it up for a just a bit longer in case the colors are deemed more desirable.  --[[User:Flargen|Flargen]] 02:54, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

== Reworking item data pages for consumables ==

I've been mulling it over for awhile, and I think we could benefit from changes to how the data pages for items (consumables in particular) are handled.  Exactly how they are handled is a bit technical, but I imagine a lot of the people that read this page will be able to follow.  Assuming I can manage to communicate it all well.  Item data pages are all just a special switch statement; you can only ever pull out a single data field from the page with any single call.  Monster/location data pages, however, are structured as dynamic template calls.  You provide a name for the formatting template, and all of the data is passed into that template as inputs (with just a single call to the data page).  This formatting includes the "special switch statement" that item data pages are built on as a special case: it is exactly replicated by {{tl|Data2}}.  So, other than a bot going through and changing all {{tl|Data1}} calls to {{tl|Data2}} calls, and reformating item data pages, there would be no particular problems or loss of functionality by changing item data pages to be structured exactly like monster/location data pages.<br /><br />Now, some of the trickier business comes from populating item data pages with enough information that we can make good use of the dynamic structure.  We could conceivably store ''every'' thing we can think of on there, but if you look at the number of possible inputs for {{tl|item}}, and the fact that a lot of them are only ever used ''for'' {{tl|item}}, it becomes questionable to do this.  Even if it would cause zero problems from a server and wiki speed standpoint, the data pages would be an overpopulated mess.  Still, I can imagine several parameters not currently stored on the data pages that could be, and would give us the ability to create special templates to ease the formatting the updating of a variety of things.
#<code>advmin=, advmax=</code>.  Storing these makes it easier to consistently format the consumption calls of {{tl|useitem}}, and will facilitate template-based formatting of tables on the Best Foods and Best Booze pages.  Special handling for negative values or something like an <code>advtype=</code> parameter could be used to easily distinguish gains from losses.
#<code>musmin=,etc</code>.  Similarly to adventure gains, we can store the stat gains/losses.  These are also used on certain Best Foods style and other pages.
#<code>limiter=</code>.  This parameter is currently passed in to {{tl|useitem}} to give how many fullness/drunkenness/spleen an item takes up.  Combined with the above, it becomes very easy to compute average adventures/organ, without the need to change several pages whenever an item's adventure gains are changed in-game, or are spaded out to be different than was originally thought.  This would make it straightforward, for example, to make a template that would automatically format a row entry in a Best Foods style page.  I believe the existing special class tables that have been provided to us would allow the table to continue to look very nice without people having to worry about changing a whole bunch of "rowspan=" values and mucking up the table entirely just from trying to add one new item.
#<code>quality=</code>.  By also storing the item's in-game quality, we can easily compare what the game tells us the quality is versus what the given adventure gains would tell us (we have an accurate rubric for this, which should be further up the page).  We can then automatically tag pages for which the two are inconsistent: indicating that either there is an in-game bug with an incorrect quality being displayed, or that the adventure range has not been correctly determined.  We could make a new category for this.  '''Category:Inconsistent''', maybe.
#<code>type=</code>.  You can probably figure out where I'm going with this by now.  Used by both {{tl|item}} and {{tl|useitem}} to assist in correct formatting.
Now, there are a few additional things to consider.  The idea here is to make use of the dynamic formatting capabilities of the current monster/location data pages, not simply expand the number of things to toss into the existing switch structure.  The limitation here is that you can't pass in any parameters that don't exist within the data page itself.  And there are some things which you can't really just store on data pages, like use messages--some items have a variety of possible messages, and there's no way that we can just predict the maximum number that will ever to possible, and it'd be bothersome to have to add like 30 lines for possible use messages to the data page and code to select which one (and which message is which will not be particularly transparent to the typical editor).  There is a feasible work around, though, which is to add a line like <code>text=<nowiki>{{{text|}}}</nowiki></code> to the data page itself.  So by doing something like <nowiki>{{</nowiki>Data:''itemname''|format=''formatting template name''|text=''whatever''<nowiki>}}</nowiki> you could pass in the given text as one of the inputs to the formatting template, without actually storing the given text on the data page.  There's still a slight issue of how many such "dummy" data fields we add to accomodate this.  Too many and we might as well argue to store virtually every possible thing on the data page.<br /><br/>One other shortcoming I can think of right now are abnormal items.  An item that randomly causes you to gain OR lose substats, or otherwise has highly random results, but just predictable enough to predict them (a food/booze version of a [[668 scroll]], say, rather than schrodinger's thermos, for example).  Useitem's existing functionality can be kept for these special cases, with the more typical items being consistently handled by some other template.<br /><br />So the end of all of this is: what do you think?  Other shortcomings or problems you can think of?  Other good uses you'd like to mention, including other things to propose to be added to the data pages?  Yay or nay?  --[[User:Flargen|Flargen]] 01:04, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
*I'm fine with converting all of the data pages to use the "Data2" format and reworking the appropriate templates (ideally switching them all to use a single {{tl|Data}} template). [[User:QuietBot|QuietBot]] has been sleeping for a very long time, though I'm pretty sure I can wake him up long enough to convert all of the data pages if there are no objections. --{{User:Quietust/sig}} 17:50, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
**Yeah, that'd be good.  Saw you futzing around with some test templates awhile back.  Any progress on this idea?  --[[User:Flargen|Flargen]] 01:48, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
***Not sure about the ideal way to convert {{tl|acquire}}/{{tl|acquireEffect}}/etc. to make use of the other template format, but we can deal with that later. --{{User:Quietust/sig}} 15:33, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
****Cool, the structure change is done.  Now for the fun of taking full advantage of it.  I've got a working version (I think) for useitem at {{tl|test}} (using [[Data:Test]]).  Data page is constructed in that case so that "text" and "posteffect" can be passed in dynamically, rather than fixed.  This could be done with any parameter in the data page, really.  Only really necessary for things that have been known to come in a variety of flavors, or do for that one particular item, of course.  But that was all kind of the point.  I'd push it, but it'd break everything if the relevant data fields weren't moved to item pages first or soon afterwards.  And maybe I missed something.  That example is mostly constructed around a consumable ([[Hell ramen]] in particular), though I've tested it with familiar as well (I think you can see the traces of that in the data page).  So there may be other parameters for other items to move to their data pages.  The test version doesn't try to use the data page as it once did, assuming it was called as a formatter for the data page.  I suppose I could add a grandfathering parameter that would use either the old method or the new one depending upon a particular input, with the input defaulting to the old one (for now).  Then everything would remain unbroken if we pushed it and we could test a slew of particular items with the new method for compatibility checks.  Which we can basically do with just the test template, but I like to ramble and conjecture.  --[[User:Flargen|Flargen]] 06:49, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

== Food/Booze note on Edit screen ==

* The warning against entering adventure gains from food while under the effects of Pride or Gluttony is obsolete, is it not? Those effects now only change stomach capacity. Even Blender, Opossum, Ode and Got Milk are quite easy to correct for under the new system. {{unsigned|ManaUser }}
** I completely agree with this - at the very least, the Pride and Gluttony note should be removed, as it's no longer relevant. [[User:Wrldwzrd89|Wrldwzrd89]] 16:41, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
** Actually, there are two of them (for reasons unknown to me), slightly different though. They need to be updated, but the game's gotten too big for me to know everything anymore. ;) I'm sure some things needs to be removed, or maybe even added.  Ideas?  Links: [[MediaWiki:Copyrightwarning]] & [[MediaWiki:Copyrightwarning2]] --[[User:JRSiebz|JRSiebz]] ([[User talk:JRSiebz|&#x260E;]]|[[Special:Contributions/JRSiebz|&#167;]]|[[Special:Listusers/sysop|&#8225;]]) 05:10, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
:: Hmm, it looks like the second is the one that actually gets used.  I wonder how effective the warnings really are?  At least the first couple are probably useful even to experienced editors, since it can be easy to forget about things like moon sign.  Mostly, it's just a big block of text that I'm forced to scroll down through to submit.
:: Also, the lines about not submitting copyrighted material are a bit silly; this wiki consists almost entirely of text written by the fine folk at Asymmetric.  If there's a copyright warning, it should mention that they've blessed the way we use their work.  
:: Anyway, I removed Pride/Gluttony for now, since it's clearly no longer necessary.  --[[User:Starwed|Starwed]] 01:26, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
::: Thanks. For what it's worth, I tend to agree that the length of the warnings is getting kind of silly. Obviously it's important that people don't enter bogus data, but it seems like there must be a better way. --[[User:ManaUser|ManaUser]] 06:49, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
:::: It's a necessary evil sadly. Before any of those warnings were added, there was a spurt of bad changes or pointless questions. At the very least they've prevented most of them since.--[[User:Toffile|Toffile]] 21:28, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

== Plural monsters ==

We probably should have a new field on monster data pages, to indicate how many combatants you face.  I think the game tracks this as an actual number, right?  (I'm assuming a spell capable of effecting 3 monsters doesn't give that message against the waltzers, for instance.)  

I guess something like <code>foes=X</code>, leaving it blank for singular monsters?  We can use this to auto-categorize them, which will be nice.  --[[User:Starwed|Starwed]] 22:14, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
*How do we know exactly how many are in a given encounter?  Maybe a skill only hits 3 when there's really 30?  But, yeah, this information needs to make it onto the wiki somewhere.  --[[User:Flargen|Flargen]] 00:39, 30 October 2010 (UTC)