View source for Talk:Hardcore Skill Analysis/archive

This is an archive of [[Talk:Hardcore Skill Analysis]] as it stood at the start of Jan 2007.--[[User:DirkDiggler|DirkDiggler]] 04:32, 12 January 2007 (CST)

===Moving Skills to Alternate Tiers:  Current discussion===
I just finished a first draft of expanding the whole list into a more useful set of tiers.  When I last did a big reorganization, I was trying to keep the tiers sized as closely to one another as was practical.  That approach was clearly nearing the end of its useful life, and now it's more like a food pyramid kind of thing:  put the really good stuff in tiny clusters at the top, with a big fat bottom full of stuff nobody really likes.

I think I got most of the essence of what people wanted done in the big thread below here taken care of, which is why I started a new discussion section here.  Clearly all the references to specific tier numbers and such below are now off anyway.  The next time I get a block of time, I'm going back in again to make sure I included everyone's feedback; I know I ignored all of the comments about moving skills from the bottom upwards (except for Cleesh which I already revised a bit).  I need to print the result and stare at it a bit now.  Expect one more big revision from me in the next day or three before I settle down. I wouldn't waste too much time going crazy nitpicking (or editing the document) until after that.  --[[User:Greg1104|Greg1104]] 23:51, 3 August 2006 (CDT)

As a quick note I'd like to point out a similar discussion on HCOxy forums. [[http://forums.jick-nerfed.us/viewtopic.php?t=1480]]--[[User:Snarles2|Snarles2]] 18:46, 1 August 2006 (CDT)

Just so you all don't think I'm not listening, I wanted to comment for a minute on the threads I just broke into sections below.  In most cases, I've been juggling the tier recommendations based on the descriptions of the skills as currently written.  In order to convince me a move makes sense, I first like to have some new information to rewrite the description with.  Tell me what should be changed about the comments, and the need to change the tier should be obvious.  I'm about to move both Superhuman Cocktailcrafting and Polka of Plenty; note that there are subtle description changes going along with each.  I wasn't comfortable with the move until I had those changes ready as well.  --[[User:Greg1104|Greg1104]] 11:20, 28 August 2006 (CDT)

While I was in there, I also bumped up Smooth Movement and Ambidextrous Funkslinging, again with substantial rewrites of the descriptions.  --[[User:Greg1104|Greg1104]] 13:02, 28 August 2006 (CDT)

This week's introduction of physical damage resistant monsters into the normal HC ascension path prompted me to upgrade the top two spellcasting skills from Suzy's magic guide into tier 6, up from 8; I was thinking of doing that anyway every since the introduction of all the spell damage items a few weeks back.  I also revised several descriptions with suggested uses for the skills, like highlighting the AT skills that allow you to speed up guild challenges.  I personally will do around 10 turns in the sewer before doing any regular adventures, because that gives me enough worthless items for the first day while also optimizing what items I need to obtain from the fork adventure in the woods.  It sucks to use the fork to get a stolen accordion or spices, only to get one of those anyway going into the sewer later in the day.  10 turns gives about a 40% chance of an accordion, and if I have one and the matching AT buff then I can grab the first guild reward and go right to level 2.  --[[User:Greg1104|Greg1104]] 18:09, 31 August 2006 (CDT)
* I've changes the descriptions for Crossbow Fever and Pulverize, the former being change much more than the latter. I didn't move them from their current tiers, and I will explain why I changed the descriptions In regard to Crossbow Fever the addition of monsters getting critical hits seems to make it slightly more useful, but the nature of the damage bonus it provides still seems to be a pretty good reason to leave it where it is. In regard to Pulverize, the description said that is was of NO use to Moxie classes, which isn't true. By itself it has little use to them unless in Oxycore, but with Super-Advanced Meatsmithing as well one can make the projectile icemaker. However... in this case as well, this doesn't seem to be enough to warrant a tier change.--[[User:Nucleon|Nucleon]] 18:40, 31 August 2006 (CDT)
**It's not clear from that description what the Oxy path has to do with anything.  I'm not sure myself what you're implying with that comment.  --[[User:Greg1104|Greg1104]] 14:40, 4 September 2006 (CDT)

===Comparisons with The Skills Project===
Just finished a pass comparing the new tier setup with the data from "The Skills Project", which is a very nice document.  If you compared their top 10 skills in each class to the tier placement of those skills here, they end up 1-2-2-2-4-5-5-6-7-5 (Muscle), 1-1-2-2-2-3-4-4-7-7 (Myst), 1-2-2-3-3-4-4-6-3  (Mox).  

The major thematic differences are:

* Skills seem focused more on Muscle-based combat than Moxie/Myst styles of play over there; I've tried to keep this document balanced for all play styles.  Chronic Indigestion (3 here) is put way down on the rankings, mixed in with skills that are Tier 7 here.  Tongue of the Walrus (4 here) also way down with the Tier 7 skills.  Other ones that stick out a little are Wisdom of the Elder Turtles (ranked lower than here), Double-Fisted Skull Smashing (ranked higher there), and Tao of the Terrapin (ranked higher there).  Rage of the Reindeer is also ranked much higher than I expected, and I note that Thrust-Smack here needs to be moved up a tier or two which I'll do next time I'm in the main document.
* No respect for Saucecrafting.  The Way of the Sauce (4 here) and Impetuous Sauciness (3 here) are mixed in with Tier 7 and 8 skills.  As has already been discussed here, I feel there's always something good you could use more reagent potions for, and it's only at the very highest levels of skill in the game that they stop being so great.  CLEESH is also bottom ranked, either as part of that anti-potion theme or because it wasn't considered in that context.
* Very low ranking on skills to generate meat, which I can't understand at all.  Nimble Fingers (5 here) and Polka of Plenty (3 here) are mixed in with the Tier 7 skills.
* Two other rankings that look a little weird are a lower ranking for Armorcraftiness and Stevedave's Shanty than I would have expected.  
Overall, though, very close match, which makes me feel confident that we're closing in on the consensus best practices of the Kingdom.  --[[User:Greg1104|Greg1104]] 18:27, 7 August 2006 (CDT)

*As one of the people involved in that list, allow me to try and explain my position.<br>Firstly, skills were ranked in the order one would optimally perm them. While I imagine some may find a use for chronic indigestion or CLEESH during a run, it would be a poor choice to perm early on. You'll also have to realize that some of the skillologists (Mr Bill's word, not mine) are full blown stasis users, which explains the low ranking of skills like tongue of the walrus and the meat drop skills. Now, wisdom of the elder tortoises, as far as I'm concerned, is far more of a luxury skill. Many other feel that way, which is why is recieved it's lower ranking. Mojouscular melody is the acceptable alternative. Double-Fisted Skull Smashing was ranked high, mainly due to it allowing you to dual weild two hippo whips. Tao of the Terrapin, simply put, is the best damage absorption skill out there. Rage of the Reindeer can be a great skill. Although expensive, it can take the place of Symphony of Destruction when you really need that third song slot. Thrust-Smack saves way too much meat over the course of a run.<p>The reason I believe the saucecrafting enhancement skills are ranked so much lower is they do not come in handy very often. Early runs can be completed without sauciness, as it is more of a luxury skill. Way of the sauce is rather weak on it's own, though not bad when combined with pulverize and...uhh, that pastamancer one. I forget the name. Damn it. Another reason for the lack of love for saucecrafting stuff is it requires a chef-in-the-box. That thing is almost as hated as that damn cow. In addition to what I mentioned earlier about CLEESH, those potions were added after many had already turned in their lists. I still feel it deserves the ranking it got. I never use CLEESH, as it costs more than an LTS, which is likely enough to kill any monster I'd want to CLEESH.<br>Now, as for armorcraftiness and shanty, they really...aren't useful. I mean, the main draw of armorcraftiness is furry pants and penguin shorts. Nothing spectacular. Shanty, I'll admit, I haven't perm'd yet, though the only place I can think of to use it is the Daily Dungeon to pass a myst test. --[[User:Ricket|Ricket]] 19:07, 7 August 2006 (CDT)

*That informative commentary prompted me to add a "Controversial Skills" sections, where I think I fairly covered both sides of this and other popular debates here.  There are a lot of skills where I've been advocating a middle position here, bumping up skills I think are particularly useful for newer players even if they're frowned on by hardcore veterans.  Also, I'm done with the last of the pending edits I've had queued up here; the skills are all ranked appropriate now as far as I'm concerned, and I think I included all the feedback in the sections below now.  I'm happy now.  --[[User:Greg1104|Greg1104]] 03:07, 9 August 2006 (CDT)

===Superhuman Cocktailcrafting===

:I say bump Superhuman one Tier, its much better than a number of skills in the tier above it. Commentary on Aria is terribly misleading, discounting it as not very useful except for backfarming when its used primarily to raise the level of monsters ala MCD for added XP because you can handle tougher monsters than are in the zones open to you. Also given the AT skill revamp Shanty's limited usefulness is even less now that mojo gives myst +10. Same thing with CLEESH, mojo made CLEESH worse (if that was even possible). Also seriously, who clovers booze? The barrels are better than clovering booze.  --[[User:Veistran|Veistran]] 03:44, 11 August 2006 (CDT)

** Could you give an example of which III skills you feel Superhuman Cocktailcrafting is better than?  I've only found it to be as useful as the skills above it on Moxie-class runs, which is why it's sitting where it is.  The description for Aria needs to be revised, I'm working on better text there; the problem is that you need a fair number of skills before you are fighting above you level with any regularity, and I need to disclaim the description properly.  I clover booze regularly on day 2 of a no-path run; sometimes on day 1 if I get Liver of Steel and want to make 2 Advanced/Superhuman cocktail drinks.  If I need cocktailcrafting ingredients fast, and don't have time to farm for them, getting a guaranteed couple from drink tickets can be the best move.  I've been experimenting with the Barrels lately; I average about 1.5 useful drinks per 5 adventures spent.  I've had two runs where I spent 6 adventures there (two on the non-booze sections, then the four booze ones) and didn't obtain a single drink that could be upgraded--instead I got splosions and cola drinks, so poof went a clover for booze instead.  I've also been in a situation where all the drinks I got from the barrels needed finishing ingredients I don't have yet.  --[[User:Greg1104|Greg1104]] 04:21, 19 August 2006 (CDT)
:::Two extra cocktail garnishes per day makes it not only possible every day of your run but also considerably easier to get 5 DB cocktails a day. For more information on the barrels [http://forums.jick-nerfed.us/viewtopic.php?t=1232 look here] the data indicates that on avg you get 2 db bases and one other drink. For more booze information in general [http://forums.jick-nerfed.us/viewtopic.php?t=547 check] out Mack's booze guide. Clovering the Orcs is bad because it only even approaches okay when you have the outfit and then you've probably invested a lot of turns adventuring in a non-optimal area to spend more turns adventuring without stats. You're better off looking for a shaky clown, booze giant or drunk goat if you want booze. Lets see, skills in the tier that its better than... impetuous, chronic and polka. The problem with impetuous is that if you're relying on reagent potions you _have_ to get a chef to even justify it, you're going to have to get the hippy outfit for fruit and you're going to have to farm reagents. That is a lot of potentially sub-optimal adventuring. Chronic while potentially useful doesn't really deserve to billed that highly as its really only useful for someone with a limited choice of combat skills. Polka, polka uses a song slot, it really is only feasibly to run at the peak and while more meat = more stats, more adventures is strictly better. Superhuman means more adventures per day an easier time getting your drinking done effectively and if you're a moxie class even more adventures per day. --[[User:Veistran|Veistran]] 11:21, 21 August 2006 (CDT)

:::Thanks for the booze guide pointer, I hadn't seen that one yet.  It's now suggested reading in the location guide.  I'm going to chew on that for a bit and reconsider where Superhuman should fit (I have a multi who lives solely for experiments like this).  The whole booze section of the general guide here needs to be rewritten and that's a great source for inspiration.  (I think the revision is going to be an example run walkthrough illustrating correct practice)  Issues with Impetuous and Polka are already spelled out in the Controversial section here.  The fact that you need several more combat skills to do better is exactly why Chronic sits where it is; unlocking Chronic every run lets new players pick up skills that add adventures or stats instead of needing to focus on combat ones initially.  With the changes from the White Citadel quest in particular, my opinion is that many players have a bias against getting the hippy outfit that's unjustified in the current play environment.  It's particularly useful on Moxie runs where plentiful fruit to feed the Still for Superhuman drinks helps more than picking up partial Advanced drinks in the Barrel.  --[[User:Greg1104|Greg1104]] 12:39, 22 August 2006 (CDT)
::::I'm saying that a skill that requires you to get the hippy suit and a chef to be useful isn't that great, and that polka isn't that great because the only time its really worth it to use that song slot is the peak and there are a ton of other songs that will speed you up more than the extra meat from polka making it less desirable. That chronic isn't that great because you can't even get it on two of the four paths and even then its only useful in some areas. The question is really simple: are any of those skills going to save you the extra adventures a day that supercocktails will give, the extra adventures that two more DB drinks will give or if you're on the non-drinking paths the 6300 meat worth of mp you can get every day from the still as a moxie class? I'm just not seeing how even two of them together equal superhuman.--[[User:Veistran|Veistran]] 19:32, 24 August 2006 (CDT)
::::Much like Pulverize, Superhuman Cocktailcrafting is only extremely useful with 1/3 of the classes you can ascend with (where you have the Still), and it's not fair to act like the supercocktails are free when they have their own costs like needing fruit and booze directly rather than being able to upgrade barrel drinks instead.  Skills that only really shine with one class type are automatically bounced down a grade in my mind versus ones that help every class.  As for the always controversial Polka, have you tried doing an ascension recently with a plain old volleyball, or with a very small skill set?  It's very easy to forget what it's like.  Before you get to the Yetis progress is directly held back by lack of meat in so many ways.  You can solve that problem with other skills, but for some players Polka is the easiest way to cope.  --[[User:Greg1104|Greg1104]] 03:31, 26 August 2006 (CDT)
::::: Assume characters have same skillset save polka and superhuman, aren't moxie class and an avg meat drop of about 50 for the entire pre-peak which I think is more than fair. Thats 25 meat per turn extra with polka and a cost of ~100 meat per 15 adventures. Thats what maybe 3000 meat extra a day which is about 15 substat in the hall of legends (comparing their relative value in substat is the fairest comparison I can think of) 10 adventures per day with a 20lb volley ball (two more db drinks) is 50 substat and this is ignoring the substat from the drinks and the meat drops from those 10 adventures. Now if you're a Myst class with MMJ it gets a better but not 3 times better. I mean we can go more in-depth butI think its very misleading to tell people that +meat drops are priority skills for being faster at hardcore. I'd like to think that the objective of someone coming for skills analysis is they're wanting more context than a "cheat sheet" that just basically says "you should probably get these skills in this order." I'm not really sure who exactly you're trying to appeal to because you've got too many conflicting messages going on with this currently. Ideally I think its worth considering splitting this into multiple articles as covering the skills from multiple perspectives seems like too much scope for one article. --[[User:Veistran|Veistran]] 01:00, 27 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::As you suggest it's hard to keep this sort of guide balanced, I'm trying to work more on that lately now that I've caught up with the game changes.  One day I'm going to accumulate all the good arguments like this one into a "best of the strategy debate" page.  Anyway, I'm not going to disagree with you the main thrust of your comments, because from the perspective you're looking at it you're right.  My main issue with the style of thinking you're using here that assumption that there's nothing better you can do with meat than donate it at the hall, which really not true.  Having more meat, especially passively, lets you fund more skills than you otherwise would be able to afford during the early parts of the game, which in turns lets you finish quests and move through areas faster than would otherwise be practical.  The emphasis on only substats that a lot of people have, assuming that every skill can always be funded, usually ignores play issues like that.  Turning meat into HP also expands how high up you can fight without bleeding dry (Stasis is only so helpful when you're trying to fight way about your means).  If you're good enough to be turning on expensive skills like Antiphon from combat turn #1 and keeping it on the whole run, more power to you; even with 40-some ascensions I'm finding there are times I just can't afford to have it on during the entirety of day 1.  But Polka always pays for its slot.  --[[User:Greg1104|Greg1104]] 11:20, 28 August 2006 (CDT)

===Jackasses's Symphony===
Hey, what about the Jackasses' Symphony? Given that its cost has been highly reduced, it's a good choice for LTSers. Also, Tenacity of the Snapper is at IV. I think Symphony should be at least on par with that skill. (Haven't permed either yet, but...) --[[User:Nucular|Nucular]] 06:26, 11 August 2006 (CDT)

* Symphony is down so far because it takes up one of the three precious AT song spots.  Tenacity is a better skill because you can turn it on whenever you want.  --[[User:Greg1104|Greg1104]] 04:21, 19 August 2006 (CDT)

Heh, I find I need both to take down high-level monsters in one hit...but I guess that's what rage of the reindeer is for. [[User:Nucular|Nucular]] 05:41, 17 November 2006 (CST)

*Honestly, I think this should be a bit higher. Sure, it takes up an AT slot but how many accenders have the skills necessary to run something like Aria AND tenacity and rage? For the casual LTSer this skill is much more MP effective then either Rage or Tenacity. I realise its not the best skill, but its definitly better then some of the skills above it like [[Scarysauce]] or [[Expert Panhandling]].

*I'm going for a full Stainless Steel set, and started with dual Seal Clubbers (it was Crimbo, so I didn't need food so bad) for LTS/Eye and shillelaghs.  AT was my fifth run, and I perm'd Symphony before moving on to a DB.  It's the best decision I've made yet.  Without it I could never have been able to handle the peak as soon as it opened, and even in fights I can handle with LTS/Eye alone Symphony keeps the fight from reaching a second round, saving greatly on HP costs.  Phat Loot is nice, but this is definitely nicer in this condition.  If I were a muscle class it might not be as useful, but for a non-muscler with LTS/Eye it definitely rocks way harder than 7th tier. --[[User:Smello|Smello]] 20:28, 4 January 2007 (CST)

*I also see this as being close to but slightly worse than tenacity.  It's more powerful by far than any other +melee skill (+36 damage to each LTS); it's cheaper than tenacity; and it works for spells and weapons, so you can use it even if you can't yet pull off LTS'ing as a myst class. Really the only drawback is the song-slot thing but if it gets you into the gallery faster at mid-level, it's worth dropping aria or loot.  The [http://www.noblesse-oblige.org/mrbill/hcall.html skill ranking project] puts it as the #14th best moxie skill: just below funkslinging and aria, above nimble fingers and power ballad (I see those last two as a big drop-off from the three above it).  I vote "Tier 5" for this skill.--[[User:DirkDiggler|DirkDiggler]] 15:01, 5 January 2007 (CST)

===Ambidextrous Funkslinging===
Can someone tell me why Ambidextrous Funkslinging is rated as highly as it is on charts like the Skills Project one?  Is it because of how you can avoid attacking by putting in wrong data?  Clearly there's some use for the skill beyond what the description here references.  --[[User:Greg1104|Greg1104]] 04:21, 19 August 2006 (CDT)
*I don't think Ambidextrous Funkslinging is ranked highly on the skill ranking list. It's important to remember that while it may be ranked #16 out of all moxie skills, nobody in their right mind is going to do 16 straight moxie runs. In addition to that, DBs and ATs have rather weak skill sets. While funkslinging may not give a big bonus, it will save you a handful of turns. --[[User:Ricket|Ricket]] 05:08, 26 August 2006 (CDT)
*It's rated as #13 in the Moxie skills ranking, ahead of obviously useful passive skills like Nimble Fingers.  Some people feel it's more useful than 20% more meat for the entire run--now that I check, you put it at #11 and Nimble at #12.  This makes no sense to me.  --[[User:Greg1104|Greg1104]] 07:12, 26 August 2006 (CDT)
*Oh, whoops, I meant to say 13. Really. Anyway, I really don't have a high opinion of meat drop skills. When I did my first few runs with a volleyball (yes, I used a volleyball when I started ascending), I did not run out of meat. Meat was never an issue. Now, let's show why a meat drop skill of 20% is worth less than funkslinging. Assuming a 40 pound volleyball familiar, you'll get ~13 substats each adventure in the 8-bit realm, versus ~28 at the peak. 15 substats are lost each time you adventure in the 8-bit realm. Let's assume 100% drop rates on pixels, and all you need is red pixels. You'll spend 8 adventures to get the required 8 extra pixels. Therefore, you lose 120 substat points by not having funkslinging. 60 main stat points, 30 to each off stat. Donating to the hall of legends gives 1.5 substat points for every 200 meat. That's 80 donations of 200 meat, or 16,000 meat! Knott Yetis give ~200 meat per adventure. 20% is 40 meat. You need to spend 400 turns at the icy peak to make up for those missing stats. 200 if you only care about your main stat.<br>Let's say you do your pixel farming earlier. Like, level 6 or so. The optimal place to be adventuring at that time is Menagerie Level 3. If you look at the skills I picked, you should be easily able to defeat the monsters there. With a 40 pound volleyball, that's 22.5 substats, or 9.5 lost for each adventure in the pixel area. 9.5 x 8 is 76 substats, or 38 main substat points. That's 25 donations of 200 meat, or 10,000 meat. 250 turns at the icy peak. 5,000 meat and 125 turns, if you only care about the main stat.<br>Now, obviously, you won't be spending all those turns at the peak. Figure out the average of certain zones, add it into the formula, etc. So yeah. It's at the very least a viable choice. --[[User:Ricket|Ricket]] 05:25, 27 August 2006 (CDT)
*OK, that at least makes sense to me now.  I never really added up the turns like that for this skill.  As usual, it's a little more complicated even than your example suggests.  First off, it's not just 20% more meat at the peak, it's 20% more the entire run; there's a pretty substantial amount dropped during the 9th and 10th level areas as well that you can turn into substat points and useful stuff (I used to use a lot of mine to buy Gnome or other missing and expensive skills for example).  Also, the turns saved by not needing as many red/black pixels is very complicated to estimate, because you still need to be there long enough to get a digital key no matter what.  That will get speeded up because of the white conversion (which is normally limited by running out of reds), but right now I normally make a blue potion or three during the time I'm stuck there, which depending on your class has substantial value as well during the early game.  And I'm normally spending turns in the 8-bit realm during dead time starting at 5th level, especially if day one has clovers (cutting down on time in the kitchen) and I get lucky at the Harem.  And when comparing later pixel accumulation, players at this skillset level should have dual-wield and maybe Urkel; I can always handle the 8-bit realm with dual hippo whips and Urkel turned on, but sometimes I'm not strong enough to handle Yetis with that combo when I first get there (my last Myst run I still needed a Capasin cookbook in one hand at the beginning).  That and similar situations closes some of the stat gap between the areas as well.  Anyway, this is now beaten up to my satisfaction, thanks for the comments.  --[[User:Greg1104|Greg1104]] 11:20, 28 August 2006 (CDT)
*Glad I could help. And just so you know, I only used the peak because it is the location with the highest consistant meat drop. I worked out the airship's average increase to be 19.2 meat per turn, and the castle to be 24.85 (assuming you don't skip the wheel adventure, then I have no clue). Obviously those numbers will change with any combats frequency modifiers you have on. Basically, as long as you reach 16,000/10,000 additional meat over the course of your run, nimble fingers is "better". I did take the conversion of multi-coloured pixels into white pixels into consideration for my figure on the 8-bit realm. Assuming you got each adventure and equal number of times, and you always got 100% drop rates, it was something like 32 white pixels, and just enough reds. --[[User:Ricket|Ricket]] 16:03, 28 August 2006 (CDT)

===Notes on spell targeting===
Some time back, I noticed that Flavour of Magic and Immaculate Seasoning were commented on as less useful because of the availability of the elemental cookbooks.
Is the original commenter available to explain this point?  I understand that pounding up to 14 is time-consuming, but if somebody is casting spells enough to require choosing between the elemental cookbooks or a skill for elemental control, why recommend a more Meat-intensive system which produces less damage?--[[User:Dornbeast|Dornbeast]] 12:31, 4 August 2006 (CDT)

* Sure, having the skill is better than not having it.  That note is in there just to explain why it's not ranked higher.  It's expensive to obtain and of marginal use.  By the time a character gets enough skills that either Flavour or Seasoning are starting to look like the best ones available, they should already be able to kill all the early elemental vulnerable enemies without needing the extra damage from targeting.  And in later parts of a run, the cost of the cookbook (or an extra 10 pounds of damage) really isn't that significant.  --[[User:Greg1104|Greg1104]] 00:07, 7 August 2006 (CDT)

** I suppose I just don't understand something.  In my opinion, the second or third run through Sauceror would make Seasoning worth perming.  Yes, it isn't above Advanced Saucecrafting, and perhaps not above Elemental Saucesphere.  But assuming that a player is going for a Myst-based style (I assume that "Myst-based style" means using spells for primary damage source rather than playing Stasis), a Pastamancer ends up paying 4000 less meat per run and putting out 10 more damage per spell cast against non-elemental opponents.  A Sauceror gets 20 more damage.--[[User:Dornbeast|Dornbeast]] 14:03, 8 August 2006 (CDT)

* I know spellslinging is still regarded somewhat of a deviant practice, and it would probably distract from the page to mention skills which spellslingers should reprioritize.  Interested parties, however, should consult [http://forums.jick-nerfed.us/viewtopic.php?t=960 Suzy's Magic Primer & LTS Alternative] for a spellslinger's skill classification.--[[User:DirkDiggler|DirkDiggler]] 07:54, 7 August 2006 (CDT)

* I just revised the description for Flavour to make it a bit more fair.  To answer Dornbeast's general commentary here, it's hard to recommend spellcasting focus as an early priority for hardcore permanent skills with the current set of game mechanics and skill list; you just don't need it.  As for "the second or third run through Sauceror would make Seasoning worth perming", my opinion is that Impetuous Sauciness and Way of the Sauce are both far more interesting.  And the opinion of most experienced players (who don't agree with me or you) is that Myst runs should be focusing on the accumulating the much better Pastamancer skill set.  Check out "The Skills Project" if you don't believe me--they put "Flavour of Magic" at almost the very bottom of the useful Sauceror skills, ranked much worse than it is here.  --[[User:Greg1104|Greg1104]] 02:19, 9 August 2006 (CDT)

** Thank you.  That change is all I wanted.  I can't argue with the ranking of either Flavour of Magic or Intrinsic Spiciness.  I just had an issue with the commentary.--[[User:Dornbeast|Dornbeast]] 11:27, 9 August 2006 (CDT)

===Pulverize===
By now we are aware that the Haunted Gallery (which is just plain awesome for leveling) drops a good amount of antique stuff, which smashes into a good amount of wads, which turns into a good amount of stat boosts and extra adventures. I'd think Pulverize should be III or IV now. --[[User:Nucular|Nucular]] 05:41, 17 November 2006 (CST)

I agree. I have changed [[Hardcore Pulverizing]] to reflect these changes, and I feel that Pulverize should be at least a tier III skill. How many other skills provide at least 45 adventures and quite a lot of stats, even in a 4-day run (possibly even in a three day run, if one gets into the gallery on day one)?
--[[User:Snowcat|Snowcat]] 13:37, 20 November 2006 (CST)

*I agree, I find Pulverize is almost worth it just for [[Aspect of the Twinklefairy]], [[Hot Blooded]] and [[Stenchtastic]]. Helps me stay in the galery after my reagent potoins have dried up.

There has been no opposition to this move, so I put Pulverize in Tier III. [[User:Nucular|Nucular]] 02:05, 29 December 2006 (CST)

===Moving Skills to Alternate Tiers:  The old discussion===

Perhaps additional discussion on each skill would be useful.
Maybe a new column for what lvl you obtain the skill at, but yeah, this needs to be re-organized. Also, perhaps moving advanced Cocktailcrafting to I or II? it can add about 7-10 adventures to 3 booze a day. --[[User:Veszerin|Veszerin]] 16:53, 16 May 2006 (CDT)

* I didn't pick that category for it (was there before I started making changes), but I believe the reason Advanced Cocktailcrafting is in III is because you need so many other skills before you're likely to come across enough booze ingredients to utilize it.  I didn't find the skill all that helpful until I got enough skills that I could survive Menagerie 3 early in the game.  My opinion is that people with many permanent skills are better off picking The Blender for their sign and drinking at the Microbrewery until they've gotten most of the I and II skills.  Cocktailcrafting may deserve a bump up to II, but certainly not I.  --[[User:Greg1104|Greg1104]] 03:08, 23 May 2006 (CDT)

** Advanced Cocktail crafting can be useful in connection with the Barrel full of Barrels, though. I usually get everything in the top two rows, and advanced cocktail crafting is quite useful there. [[User:Pthalo|Pthalo]] 13:16, 2 July 2006 (CDT)
*** I've been trying this approach since you mentioned it.  Sometimes it works great; sometimes all I get is some Splode action and items that can't be upgraded.  I had a run recently where I burned through six adventures there where all I ended up with was a Homeopathic Elixir, jug, and two coke drinks.  My current position is the barrel is a good backup approach if you're running low on turns and don't think you'll find anymore booze in time; I try not to get to that point.  --[[User:Greg1104|Greg1104]] 10:29, 31 July 2006 (CDT)

** It's also worth mentioning that Moxie sign is horrible. In any case, 10 extra adventures per day definitely beat EoTS, LTS, Moxious Madrigal and +20% item drop, which are all in Tier I. Especially when we're talking 7+ day runs for beginning ascenders. I usually get all of my ingredients from the Barrels and some booze I pick up in the Goatlet and some fruit from Fernswarthy's (a good training ground for day 1). I get the feeling that Advanced Cocktailcrafting is underrated because of the profusion of players who are daunted by the complex booze recipes and the farming involved (which is really quite manegeable)[[User:snarles2|snarles2]] 6:50, 30 July 2006 (MT)

***You can certainly make a case that Cocktailcrafting is more important than EotS/LTS; that I can see.  Madrigal is rated so high because it's the only way to make the 1st day of an ascension really productive, and if you don't get far enough the 1st day to eat and drink everything you should your whole run is screwed.  As for Mad Looting Skillz, I have to disagree with your analysis.  If you don't have Skillz, there are way too many parts of the game that take forever until you get an item drop bonus, costing way more than 10 adventures per day.  You mention using the Goatlet for booze for example; the unimproved drop rate on the bottle of whiskey is 22.5%, so even with the Mining Helmet you're looking at one of those about every 15 goats you see.  --[[User:Greg1104|Greg1104]] 10:29, 31 July 2006 (CDT)

***You underestimate the effect of pure adventure gain vs. adventures "saved". The primary goal of any skill permed is to increase stat gain. Let's pretend that Mad Looting saves you 20 turns in the Goatlet, and thus you can spend 20 more turns in the Icy Peak. That's maybe +6 stats per turn from the increased monster level. So Mad Looting gives you +120 stats from the turns saved at an inferior area. But let's look at Cocktailcrafting. Even +6 adventures per day will net you more than +120 stats per day at that stage of the game, not to mention the stats from drinks. Besides, Cocktailcrafting helps every day, but Mad Looting only helps in pure item-drop farming -- areas without choice adventures. Only a few such areas exist -- the goatlet, the valley, the hole in the sky. So Mad Looting only really helps you for 3 days or so. Therefore, the longer your runs, the more of an advantage cocktailcrafting has over Mad Looting. And for runs longer than 6 days, Cocktails clearly win. In response to your arguement about Mad Loot, I can speak from experience that it's not necessary. Cocktails were my 4th skill permed, Phat Loot my 10th and Mad Looting my soon-to-be 13th skill permed, and throughout these runs I've had no trouble making my 3 drinks a day aside from 5-6 turns of barrel-smashing. With an average of 1 LPU per day, you'd only need to get 2 base from the barrel. Visting Fernswathy's and Menagerie 3 make it all too easy. You'll be visting M. 3 to level up anyways, so it's no loss. Even with the low droprate, it's easy to get 3-4 whiskeys from the Goatlet. Between drunk goats, Men. 3, the 3 tavern drinks, and 1-2 flower schnapps (or imp ales), you're pretty much covered in booze even without +item drop.--[[User:Snarles2|Snarles2]] 18:41, 1 August 2006 (CDT)

My opinion is that there are too many skills currently listed in II that are overrated.  Someone who's a fan of the Stasis strategy moved all of the skills to support it to II, and I don't agree they belong there.  Saucy Salve and Jalapeno Saucesphere are barely useful unless you're using Statis; they're at best III skills, and I personally would put Saucy Salve at IV (it's hard to justify another healing skill once you have Tongue of the Walrus).  I also feel that Overdeveloped sense of self preservation belongs in III next to Springy Fusilli.  You have to be pretty far along, skill-wise, before the subtle changes in combat initiative are the most important skill to pick up.  --[[User:Greg1104|Greg1104]] 02:40, 23 May 2006 (CDT)

*Springy Fusilli SHOULD be in Tier II. +40% initiative is hardly a subtle change in initiative. It's essential not just for stasis but also LTS, Myst-class native combat and Musc-class native combat. The type of combat that does not rely on Fusilli is Moxie-style combat, which can hardly be sustained through the entire run. -- [[User:snarles2|snarles2]] 6:29, 30 July 2006

**This word "essential", I don't think it means what you think it means.  I went through about 15 ascensions with my main and another dozen with my two test multies without Springy Fusilli; didn't miss is at all, and there was only a mild improvement afterwards.  But I really don't have a strong feeling on this one and could just as well leave it where it is right now, there certainly seem to be fans of this one with their reasons.  --[[User:Greg1104|Greg1104]] 10:29, 31 July 2006 (CDT)

***In my experience, it's damned near impossible to run a fast Sauceror run without the BD Necklace, simply because you can't survive a 2-hit from the Astronomer. In my Sauceror run I had to rely on flower schnapps, goofballs and even some DoD potions just to get my star charts. Reagents are on alternative, but I don't think extensive Lab/fruit-farming can replace the convenience of an enormous initiative boost, enough to get the jump on most creatures, most of the time. In my current DB run, even with Overdeveloped I couldn't survive Menagerie 3 at MCD 11 (I had shilly + LTS so 1-hits were no problem). I have a feeling that Springy could've shaved 15-20 turns off of my level 6->8 levelling. Furthermore, there's the practical problem of the lack of obviously good skills in Myst classes. After you get Pasta, Sauce, Saucesphere, what's left? Spells? Stasis? Surely you can't have optimal Muscle/Moxie moons for all of your runs.--[[User:Snarles2|Snarles2]] 19:02, 1 August 2006 (CDT)

It looks like a couple of people with limited previous input here decided to rearrange the skill levels for several things to fit their pet theories on gameplay. I just undid most of that.  Here are the proposed changes and why those skills were in their position originally:

*Upgrade Double-Fisted Skull Smashing, Rage of the Reindeer, Tenacity of the snapper to III.  The other skills in III provide improved run speed to any no-path ascension, not matter what ones personal strategy is.  The reason these skills are below that tier is because they are only really effective with some character classes.  I don't even waste MP on thrust-smack when I'm playing a Moxie class most of the time; if I can't get hit by the enemies I have to fight against anyway for quests, why should I care about damaging them harder?
*Upgrade Ur-Kel's Aria of Annoyance to III.  The description of this skill tells you right out why it's not considered particularly useful.
*Upgrade Ambidextrous Funkslinging to IV.  I'd be glad to agree with that if that modification had included comments on what they use it for.  I just updated with the only thing I've found it to be useful for.
*Downgrade Astral Shell from II to IV.  Certainly if you have already have Elemental Saucesphere, Astral Shell is a marginal skill.  But as it's a functional replacement for most of what Elemental did, consider that new players may prefer to take it instead of the Saucesphere skill.  That's why it's ranked in the same place.  I did upgrade the wording of each skill to make this clearer.
*Downgrade Tongue of the walrus.  Reducing the penalty for getting beaten up dramatically increases how hard you push your character; it's also a fairly efficient first healing skill to get.  
*Downgrade Chronic Indigestion.  The description of that text clearly states why it's ranked so high; refute that, and then I'll agree with you that it's less valuable.

--[[User:Greg1104|Greg1104]] 05:35, 28 May 2006 (CDT)

**I agree on everything except Tongue of the walrus. It's less efficient than Bandages with a Bracelet. Getting rid of beaten up does nothing. The real penalty of getiing beaten up is losing the stats from the battle. The 3 turns of weakness can be put to good use cooking/sewering/etc. If you're aiming for speed, you should never get beaten up in the first place. -- [[User:snarles2|snarles2]] 6:30, 30 July 2006.

***Actually the biggest penalty for beaten-up is when you loose three turns of an expensive set of skills because you can't adventure at your target area.  And it's very rare I pause to get a bracelet.  I stand by my statement above:  if you're not getting beaten-up a couple of times per run, you're not playing hard enough.  I'll gladly lose an occasional turn and the associated stats if it lets me play 10ML higher than I otherwise would.  Anyone else have an opinion here? --[[User:Greg1104|Greg1104]] 10:29, 31 July 2006 (CDT)

I really think Powers of observatiogn should be higher than  cat. VI. so I changed it to cat IV. Just like Mad looting skillz, it increases item drops passively, though only half as much. This way I put it on par with gnefarious pickpocketing that is also category IV (and IMO +10% passive items drop is better than +10% passive meat drop in hardcore) 
--[[User:Nappa|Nappa]] 19:37, 18 June 2006 (CDT)
* Complete agree with this one.  I'm busy working my through getting all the skills in IV right now, and I'd put Observatiogn about midway through that list, usefuless wise.  Certainly ahead of the meat drop skills.  --[[User:Greg1104|Greg1104]] 03:13, 3 July 2006 (CDT)

Why the heck is LTS/EotS in tier I? Why is Advanced Cocktailcrafting in Tier II? Advanced Cocktailcrafting is rated by many (e.g. NO Contest) to be the best Moxie class skills. The extra turns and stats cannot be underestimated, especcially with Ode to Booze.
LTS/EoTS is not nearly on par with Pastamastery, Leash, or Empathy. It should clearly be in Tier II (making sections of the game easier). LTS/EotS without support skills ONLY speed up level 6/7 leveling and fighting in the HITS (which should only take about 50 turns), and it is still not a necessity in those parts. I'd say that LTS/EoTS save about 15 turns total in an ascension (without Shillelagh IMO), as class-based fighting should be sufficient until the beanstalk. -- [[User:snarles2|snarles2]] 6:25, 30 July 2006 (MT)

Headbutt/Shieldbutt should be moved to tier 7, and possibly kneebutt as well. "Good pants aren't availible" is irrelevent with thrust-smack beating all TT combo skills. It should be noted that the multi-butt Combos aren't usable outside of the TT class. -- [[User:snarles2|snarles2]] 6:58, 30 July 2006 (MT)

A whole slew of skills in Tier 7 (Rigatoni, Hero, the lv. 0 skills) are actually quite useful in Stasis. They should probably be moved to Tier 5 at least, with a warning to players not pursuing a Stasis skilset-- [[User:snarles2|snarles2]] 7:01, 30 July 2006 (MT)

* Will take a look at these two groups again; you're probably right on each.  I personally find Stasis worthless because I have to minimize the amount of real-world time I spend playing the game with everything I've got going on.  I really hope Jick nerfs it; the reason I like hardcore is that even with an hour or two each day to play, I'm not handicapped compared to people with endless time to burn.  This is the reason I play KoL instead of WoW.  The Stasis approach is one of the few places where people with no real-world constraints can gain an edge over those who don't, and since Jick is as old and busy as me it annoys him too.  --[[User:Greg1104|Greg1104]] 10:29, 31 July 2006 (CDT)

Summon Snowcones is not a Tier 1 skill in No-path runs. 60 turns of snowcones out of 160 turns/day hardly make a difference. They do help immensely in pathed runs, however. What path are we discussing on this page? -- [[User:snarles2|snarles2]] 7:05, 30 July 2006 (MT)

* On the assumption that most early runs are going to be no-path if you want to accumulate skills, that's the focus here.  I added some notes about this in [[Hardcore Location Analysis]]; one of these days I'm going to finish the reformatting of everything to make questions like that answer themselves.  

Anyway, Snowcones deserve to be where they are just based on the effects a purple one has on the first day.  A little over 60% of the time, you'll get a purple or black snowcone on day 1, and nets you 400MP.  That's 7000 meat worth of magic at Soda Water rates; even if you're a Myst class, on the first day it takes a while to unlock the guild shop (assuming back to back no-paths) so it's not fair to apply even that discount.  I actually have two different ways I play out the first day depending on whether I get Purple or not; it really does change the whole early part of the game for the better.

Also, the blue snowcones make it much easier to finish construction projects on the first day.  For example, if I get one of those it becomes much more practical to chase the Brainsweeper down to finish a Chef before you waste a single turn cooking (handy when it's clearly impossible to get Stomach of Steel on day 1)  --[[User:Greg1104|Greg1104]] 10:29, 31 July 2006 (CDT)

Tao should be moved to Tier IV since it can easily reduce damage taken by 25%. This is useful for every class fighting past the Castle. Brawnee's Anthem should probably be in Tier 7, though. I can imagine no scenario where Anthem would be better than Madrigal/Antiphon/Symphony. Even if you were desperate for Damage Absorption, 40 DA hardly makes a dent. -- [[User:snarles2|snarles2]] 7:07, 30 July 2006 (MT)

* I'm not sure if you're done enough ascensions yet to have all the I through III skills, and therefore get a feel for why Tao is down in V.  My main has everything in I through III, and about half of IV right now.  I can't remember the last time I cared about damage I was taking in the castle.  I can't add +ML items fast enough.  Once you get to where you can always survive two hits there and afford to recharge after each battle, the Giant's are all toast.  Will consider moving it around after the rest of the reorganization.  --[[User:Greg1104|Greg1104]] 10:29, 31 July 2006 (CDT)

** Well, you've certainly got me on my inexperience. I don't have first-hand experience with Tao, but many on the HCOxy forums rate it highly. You could certainly argue that it's the best DA skill next to Elemental and Astral.--[[User:Snarles2|Snarles2]] 18:52, 1 August 2006 (CDT)

Mojomuscular should be in Tier II, snowcones or no snowcones. Who said it should be a marginal skill? The ability to cast buffs on turn 1 is essential to Day-1 Stomach of Steel. Not only can you start up Leash/Empathy early, but you can also cast Antiphon and Ode on day 1. This is an easy +50 stat points and +20 turns on day 1.--[[User:Snarles2|Snarles2]] 20:14, 30 July 2006 (CDT)

* It started in IV; I moved it to III because clearly it was useful.  Nowadays I too use it on every day 1 to unlock Ode.  See notes below for more.  --[[User:Greg1104|Greg1104]] 10:29, 31 July 2006 (CDT)

Wait, WHY is Antiphon in Tier III? You guys have got to be kidding me. It's tier II at least. And whoever wrote that must have never played without Snowcones. There is a familiar called a star starfish...--[[User:Snarles2|Snarles2]] 20:14, 30 July 2006 (CDT)

* I never liked that description either, but not so much as to revise it.  Here's a suggestion that I'd be glad to turn into a whole topic on the general hardcore stategy page.  Write an analysis of the stat points you lose by switching to the Starfish compared to a 25/30/35/40 pound Volleyball type one with those you gain by being able to turn Antiphon on, and issue guidelines on when it makes sense to do that if you can't afford to buy Anitphon.  Make sure to consider the effect of stat days.  My guess would be that by the time monsters get strong enough to fuel Antiphon efficiently, you're already at the point in the game where you can just buy it, but I really haven't crunched the numbers.  I started down that road when I created the [[Star Starfish Trick]] page (finally accumulating all the little tricks people had discovered into one place) but never followed through on the ramifications.  It's actually a little trickier than that, as Antiphon will force you to drop one of the cheap Madrigal/Polka/Phat Loot combo, but that's where to start.

Antiphon is in III because the current set of skills in II all add turns or subtantial resources to play.  Antiphon just increases stat gains per turn.  There are enough non-combat parts of the game that gobble up turns no matter what skills you have that the general approach outlined here has been to add lots more turns per day first, then make those turns more productive later.

The classification for Antiphon and Mojomuscular both reflect a slight difference in the direction I feel these revisions should go and the one you're suggesting.  My position for a while has been that there are too many skills in each Tier now; that's why I've been talking about demoting things in II to III.  I tried to provide slightly harder guidelines for that by naming each of the tiers to give a better focus--they used to just be numbered.  There are enough skills in the game now that I'd like to see 7 tiers instead of the 6 used right now.  The new one would go in-between the current 3 and 4, and it will get the worst III skills and the best IV ones.  

One of the reasons I've been soliciting feedback on some of the skills I consider on the fence is to guide how I'm going to manage that upcoming break.  For example, it's pretty clear to me now that Powers of Observatiogn is on the high side of IV, while Tongue of the Walrus is on the low side of III.  I think when I'm done Antiphone will stay in the new III, with some of the skills that are currently in II.  Ditto for Mojomuscular.  The stack of feedback you've written here is valuable because I haven't had a chance to look at this with a fresh eye since I fell into being the main editor for the hardcore guide sections at the beginning of May; lately I've been too busy working through the ramifications of the Level 15 skills to step back and consider whether something like Antiphon is correctly classified.  --[[User:Greg1104|Greg1104]] 10:29, 31 July 2006 (CDT)

Anybody have an argument against moving CLEESH to a higher tier? I'm not proposing anything drastic like it being moved all the way up to tier I, but the addition of Advanced Saucecrafting recipes involving the items you get from CLEESHed enemies look pretty useful. Of course if CLEESH is moved to a higher tier, it should be emphasized that it's only that useful if you've already got Advanced Saucecrafting. --[[User:Nucleon|Nucleon]] 19:06, 3 August 2006 (CDT)

*The new potions, especially the +25 mox, look useful for dealing with the early bosses (goblin king, bonerdagon). I'd say tier V or higher would be appropriate.--[[User:Snarles2|Snarles2]] 21:53, 3 August 2006 (CDT)

My final suggestion for the skills analysis is to make a DRASTIC cut on the number of skills on Tier 1. Why? Because new players who base their plans on information in this page may not be making the optimal choices for their skills. A new player can't tell from the page whether Eye of the Stoat/LTS is better than Pastamastery/Saucecrafting. However, the difference is HUGE. An ascender could probably grab Pasta, Sauce, and Sympath in the same time it takes to acquire LTS and eye, and his next few runs would be much faster than the chump who permed the SC skills first. The difference between some of the skills in tier 1, I would argue, is bigger than the difference between the weak Tier 1 skills and the Tier 2 skills. Therefore, to make this page more useful for new hardcore ascenders, I propose to split the early Tiers as follows:

Tier 1: Advanced Saucecrafting, Pastamastery, Sympathy

Tier 2: All the other previous Tier 1 skills + Advanced Cocktail

Tiers 3 to 8 should be the current tiers 2 to7.

--[[User:Snarles2|Snarles2]] 21:53, 3 August 2006 (CDT)

* Now you're talking in the direction this needs to go.  I'm just about ready to reorganize this whole thing (again!) with more tiers.  Advanced Cocktailcrafting is going into Tier 1; you know why?  Because I'm trying to balance the number of Musc/Myst/Mox skills in each set, to make it easier for people doing continuous runs to always have a clear next recommended skill no matter which stat days are coming up.  --[[User:Greg1104|Greg1104]] 22:06, 3 August 2006 (CDT)

Are Manor skills Spectral Snapper and Tango of Terror missing?--[[User:Tingly|Tingly]] 23:08, 5 November 2006 (CST)

With the gallery non-combats becoming the MAIN source of level-grinding for classes during levels 6-8, I'd say the -combat skills (sonata and smooth) should be moved to tier 3 or at least 4.--[[User:Snarles2|Snarles2]] 21:11, 9 November 2006 (CST)

Also moved Hero up (no more drawback) to tier 4 with other stasis support skills, and moved Dirge and Snarl down (Snarl is not so great for damage, and the peak is largely suboptimal these days. Dirge is just plain terrible.)--[[User:Snarles2|Snarles2]] 21:19, 9 November 2006 (CST)

===Stasis Warning===

A note to all of you about the Stasis strategy... a few weeks back I read through the transcript of the newest one of the Jick and Skully radio shows. In it Jick ranted about the Stasis strategy being a "cheese" method and talk then turned to how it might be possible to nerf it.  It's a pretty good bet that the Stasis strategy may not remain viable for much longer... --[[User:Nucleon|Nucleon]] 21:25, 30 July 2006 (CDT)

Went to the official KOL forums... found a topic containing a "condensed log" consisting of questions and answers on the July 17th show. Here's the relevant text.

:J: After 10, chance of running away.  Something like that is an option.  There was a suggestion in the forums, someone sent a PM and I like it a lot.  We'll talk about it later. 
:S: It's a decent idea but I don't think it addresses the problem.  If we don't solve the problem... introducing something that is clearly disguised to make it so stasis isn't a viable strategy. 
:J: It's not so much stasis, just the idea of deliberately extending combat.  With a starfish or NPZR.  It is... the heart of it, it's a way to exploit... and sure, call it a feature of combat if you want to.  In my mind it's a metagame mechanical aspect of combat and not how the fight with the monster works.  It translates real word time expenditure to success in the gameplay.  I'm okay with people learning with the game and that making them good at it, I'm not good with people spending time doing tedious bullshit and getting more resources than someone else outside of choosing where to adventure. 
  
I think that says it all... --[[User:Nucleon|Nucleon]] 21:42, 30 July 2006 (CDT)

* I could comment on how adding something like the AD&D "Attack of Opportunity" concept against people doing little or no damage would be a good solution, but even I don't like to look like that much of a nerd.  --[[User:Greg1104|Greg1104]] 10:29, 31 July 2006 (CDT)

===New (2006 June) Level 15 Skills===
Would the experts please weigh in on the level 15 skills ([[Pulverize]], [[The Way of Sauce]], and [[Transcendental Noodlecraft]]) that were added in June 2006?  I'm not remotely qualified to comment, but it seems to me that:
* Pulverize should rank somewhere around Chronic Indigestion and Advanced Cocktailcrafting (you turn useless equipment into a range of useful effects or adventures).
* The Way of Sauce and Transcendental Noodlecraft are midly more useful than (but about the same as) Superhuman Cocktailcrafting.  They become significantly more useful if you are respectively a moxie class with Superhuman (giving you solutions) or a mysticality class with Pulverize, Way of Sauce and Pastamastery (giving you hi meins).
--[[User:DirkDiggler|DirkDiggler]] 13:29, 23 June 2006 (CDT)

*I think you've got it. Pulverize is barely useful on it's own. In hardcore, unless you're an AT, Way of the Sauce only gives you the ability to make potions of temporary gr8tness. MSG really takes a bite out of any usefulness that noodlecrafting might've had. Getting all 3 skills and making hi meins sounds great, though. Too bad it'll only be available to 2/6 classes. --[[User:Ricket|Ricket]] 13:56, 23 June 2006 (CDT)

*Not sure about Way of Sauce being minimal utility. It gives 5 reagents a day, meaning 2 or 3 potions even after your saucy pasta for teet and no-path respectively. Being able to drink [[Milk of magnesium]] with your three daily reagent pastas in teet is not exactly useless. For that alone I would rank it with Ode to Booze, and some of the other new reagent potions could be very useful now that there are actually enough available reagents to bother with them. --[[User:Ben-San Arizona|Ben-San Arizona]] 16:08, 23 June 2006 (CDT)

*I'm really not sure what this obsession is with not getting hit. Reagents are a pretty horrible way to get through the harder zones. It requires a chef, a hippy outfit, spending most of your reagents on potions... Look, every class has a way to get through the castle and hole in the sky. You shouldn't need reagent potions. --[[User:Ricket|Ricket]] 18:13, 1 July 2006 (CDT)
**When reagents are available, I usually adventure at the Castle and Hole with a Hippo Whip and Goth Kid T-Shirt (once I get one) equipped, and I do the Castle without Moxious Madrigal so I can extract more meat and items instead with the other AT buffs.  Even with Reagents, there's just enough meat to keep all my buffs and survive with that +15ML boost and no Madrigal.  While it's not necessary to have reagent potions to survive there, when they're available you can maximize gains from those areas.  --[[User:Greg1104|Greg1104]] 02:59, 3 July 2006 (CDT)

I just placed notes on each of the new skills with an initial ranking into the page, and now this section is marked complete again.  Here are my notes on why I placed each skill where I did, tier-wise:

[[The Way of Sauce]]:  III.  Extra reagents are very useful for every class in a variety of situations, and in most runs you are going to lose 2 of them every day to Reagent Dishes now that chow mein is so expensive/painful to deal with.  Having 3 to spare each day instead of just 1 is a big advantage, especially as you accumulate a large number of skills and are only spending 5 days or less to ascend in no-path.  I see this skill as being almost as useful as Impetuous Sauciness now.

[[Pulverize]]:  IV.  All of the skills in III right now are ones I use on almost every single run.  This one is guaranteed useless on 1/3 of all runs, and is only moderately useful on a second 1/3.  Considering how hard this skill is to obtain (with the progress to L15), I can't imagine how someone who didn't already have all the skills in III could justify taking the time to get this one.

[[Transcendental Noodlecraft]]:  V.  I believe all of the skills in IV are more useful than this one.

*I'm gonna go ahead and revise my statement on pulverize. Having had more time to actually play around with it, I credit it for my most recent 3 day runs. With the malus, you can easily squeeze out 15 extra adventures per day, by smashing useless equipment, and turning it into wads.<br />Each piece of star gear usually gives 2 [[twinkly wad]]s. After you get through the lair's door, you can smash 'em away. The giant needle (after you've completed the giant castle map) and giant discarded whatever, and the drywall axe can be smashed into a wad each. Drops like the glowing red eye can be smashed into a wad. Those are turns and little bits of stats you wouldn't be able to get otherwise.<br />While I'm here, I'm also going to say that you shouldn't be afraid to get hit. You can survive one or possibly two hits. Trust me on that. Don't use reagent potions like a crutch. --[[User:Ricket|Ricket]] 19:42, 1 August 2006 (CDT)

*I pulled about 35 turns off my last run with just moderately aggressive pulverizing.  I would disagree with a blanket statement like "15 extra per day" though because that's not true for longer runs where more time is spent at the lower levels, where stuff doesn't smash as good.  Not everybody has a zillion skills already like you.  But 45 over a run for someone with a moderate skill set already is easily possible (which is why I suggested IV), and if it's only a 3 day run then it's 15 per day.

Pulverize does have one interesting property I noticed recently:  it somewhat evens out the difference between Muscle runs where the stat days are early in the run versus ones where it's late.  If your stat days are early, obviously you push through the low levels fast but the later ones take a lot longer.  But now, spending less time in the low levels and more time in the level 10 areas isn't as bad as it used to be, because the extra item drops produce enough wads to help equalize the difference.  --[[User:Greg1104|Greg1104]] 22:30, 3 August 2006 (CDT)

I just took the best practices I've found for using Pulverize and put them into a guide at [[Hardcore Pulverizing]].  It's got the data I kept finding myself sifting through the big charts for every run.  --[[User:Greg1104|Greg1104]] 19:14, 20 September 2006 (CDT)

===The New Peak And Spellslinging===
As the Icy Peak is still by far the best zone for level 8-9 and the Snow Queen has made elemental damage a requirement for getting the most out of it, shouldn't Stream of Sauce and Immaculate Seasoning be pushed up a tier or two? They're still not in the top rank, but tier VI seems a little low for their new usefulness. --[[User:Ben-San Arizona|Ben-San Arizona]] 20:45, 10 September 2006 (CDT)

Until the Icy Peak change they were in the bottom tier; I already started bumping those specific two skills up.  My feeling on this is that these only turn into important skills if you can't use Chronic Indigestion. That's how I'm dealing with the Snow Queen in no-path runs, and that works very well.  I just tried doing an Oxy run with my main (partially to test out just this, partially because I was on vacation), and it was very hard to find a way to kill the queen efficiently without spells, but it's still doable.  I actually ended up using the Filthy Hippy disguise (needed it for the bounty of reagent potions in an oxy run), and if you're not running through that section with a hippo whip it's possible to take the queen down with a skeleton bone which you better well have by then (spooky is doubled against cold monsters).

Chronic is almost a free skill in a lot of respects, because it's usually the optimal food to finish off that leftover 3 fullness on day 1 after eating reagent food.  That's why it's hard to justify moving the spell skills really high just because of this game change; it's not like anybody is doing hardcore Oxy/Boozefetarian runs at a useful speed anyway until they've got most of the tier I through IV skills.  My feeling is maybe it goes to V instead of VI, but I wouldn't put it higher than that myself.  --[[User:Greg1104|Greg1104]] 04:13, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

I just permed [[Immaculate Seasoning]] on my last run, and now that I see how it changes the dynamics of a Myst run I'm leaning more toward bumping it to V.  The real question in my mind is whether the best skill to perm to go along with it is [[Stream of Sauce]] or [[Wave of Sauce]].  Stream is great because it's cheap to fund even for non-Myst classes.  But if you've already got Seasoning, with Wave you can one-hit all kinds of things, and it makes Myst runs sooo much easier.  Since other classes can easily scrounge up the occasional 23MP as well (especially once you reach the Peak), it's not like the skill is limited to Myst classes.  Thoughts on Stream versus Wave anyone?  --[[User:Greg1104|Greg1104]] 04:34, 18 September 2006 (CDT)

I'll continue this conversation with myself.  Right now I'm at The Icy Peak.  I have two hippo whips and a Stainless Steel Scarf equipped, with Urkel cast.  No MCD, no rings of aggravate monster, but still close to the maximum +ML you can have here in hardcore--I'm above the max you can have for a run without the Scarf.  In this situation, as a Moxie class with a buffed Myst of 68 (bad-ass belt+Scarf boost), I am one-hitting all of the monsters in the Icy Peak with the targeted Wave of Sauce almost every time.  There are a few occasions where I just miss, but there's only a tiny bit of damage it's not doing; often the Saucespheres kill the monster when they hit me.

So if the spellcasting skills were marginal before, and now important because of the Snow Queen, there's no question in my mind that Wave is the skill to perm to go with Immaculate.  You'd be stuck casting Chronic 3 times, plus healing a lot; that's no MP savings over just using Wave and getting the battle over with already.  If you're a Myst class, you'll have a high enough Myst to always one-hit and should only be damaged if you get jumped.  Moxie classes will take a small enough amount of damage here that they can survive being hit even with a low MP, and Muscle classes will just suck up being hurt.  It's only in the Muscle case that you might make a case for Sauce instead--using Stream twice and healing with Coccoon is more MP efficient than use Wave.  --[[User:Greg1104|Greg1104]] 06:53, 23 September 2006 (CDT)