View source for Talk:Monster Level

==Deleveling==
On the DB Disco combat skill series, does anyony know for sure that the effect on the monster is a reduction in level?  Also, is the damage component Spell damage that (for instance) the [[enchanted toothpick]] will augment?  --[[User:Gymnosophist|Gymnosophist]] 13:40, 7 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
*Does the PM skill [[Entangling Noodles]] fit into this catagory? I am not sure, but I think there are other skills (except the DB ones of course) which has somewhat similar affect and may fit into this catagory? --[[User:Nitramo|NitraMo]] 11:36, 5 Nov 2005 (MST)
Say I'm wielding two antique spears, both of which delevel. Is the monster effectively deleveled twice, or does its effect apply only once?--[[User:Tarrasque|Tarrasque]] 21:17, 25 September 2006 (CDT)

==Effects==
I moved the [[green-frosted astral cupcake]] from the special category, since I don't see any reason for it not being displayed with the rest of the set +monster level modifiers.  Also, it makes much more sense (to me at least) to list the effects as the source, since it's possible that the effect is obtained by multiple items not to mention it's what's actually providing the +monster level.  So I made that change to the cupcake effect and to the two new +monster level effects recently rolled out.  I'm not sure it's even worth listing the items that produce the effect in the notes section but I put them there for now anyway. --[[User:TheDotGamer|TheDotGamer]] 14:58, 15 June 2006 (CDT)

==Comprehensive?==
Does Shieldbutt belong here, in the "Needs Research" section?--[[User:Dornbeast|Dornbeast]] 07:27, 1 August 2006 (CDT)

==Monster Level Alterations==
What are the actual effects of monster level alterations?  I couldn't find that anywhere on the page, or any nearby pages. <small>--The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:Greycat|Greycat]] ([[User talk:Greycat|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Greycat|contribs]]) at 12:10, 22 November 2005 (CDT).</small>
*Top of article reads: "Here's a comprehensive list of everything in the game that alters the level of your opponents. An increased monster level increases the monster's muscle/mysticality/moxie, their HP, and the number of stat points gained by defeating them." And please, sign your post in Talk. --[[User:Nitramo|NitraMo]] 07:28, 30 December 2005 (Central Standard Time)
**That's not exactly a quantitative effect. For instance, if I want to safely adventure in an area, how do I know how much I can increase the monster level by? Obviously, if my mox is above the requirement for safety there, I can increase it by SOMETHING - but how much more mox do I need per increased level? [[User:Sotek|Sotek]] 20:08, 1 January 2006 (Central Standard Time) (Not the person who made the previous post.)
***I added the numbers, is that what you wanted? --[[User:Nitramo | NitraMo]] <font size="-2">[http://www.freewebs.com/nitra_web/Save%20Adventures%20empty.xls SA] [http://www.freewebs.com/nitra_web/Items%20Ascension%20empty.xls IA]</font> 03:23, 2 January 2006 (Central Standard Time)

===Stat Gains===
Another question I'm wondering about:

The statpoints at the end of an adventure--are they judged by the monster's initial level, or by the level the monster was when he was defeated?  e.g. A level 20 monster which gets deleveled to 15--will he give 3 or 4 stat points at the end?--[[User:LoopyChew|LoopyChew]] 05:14, 13 February 2006 (Central Standard Time)
*4. See http://forums.kingdomofloathing.com/viewtopic.php?t=3185, which was recently bumped. --[[User:Ricket|Ricket]] 06:01, 13 February 2006 (Central Standard Time)
How do you calculate monster level? This page does not say, it only mentions how extra monster levels affect stats. I've seen charts around, but I can't find them again. We should have one here, or at least link to one.--[[User:Chish|Chish]] 19:11, 4 May 2006 (CDT)
*You start with the monster's base level (which, if you don't know it, you'll need to either (a) look up or (b) kill one and multiply the stats you get from it by 5) and you add all the ML modifiers that you have in effect.  The result is the monster's effective level.--[[User:Hellion|Hellion]] 21:08, 4 May 2006 (CDT)
*hellion's right. there's a jick show where he says that it used to be the case that reducing ML reduced stats but that this was a bug and has been fixed. if you have evidence that it's still happening, report it. --[[User:Evilkolbot|Evilkolbot]] 12:05, 25 July 2006 (CDT)
*There's a forum thread I just sent 20 minutes looking for. It's from at least 2 years ago, I think. Someone reports that the DB -ML skills are reducing his stat gains. Several people respond with a "lolnowai its RNG". Jick then responds saying it was a bug, and it's been fixed. He also mentioned that he intended the system to work such that -ML stuff didn't reduce gains. If someone could find that for me, I'll send 'em something neat. <.< --[[User:Ricket|Ricket]] 16:07, 25 July 2006 (CDT)
*I know exactly the thread you mean, but I don't remember enough about it to find it.  --[[User:Hellion|Hellion]] 17:08, 25 July 2006 (CDT)

===Item/Meat Drops===
Does monster level affect item or meat drops? --[[User:Wierd Ali|Wierd Ali]] 12:53, 4 July 2006 (CDT)
*no. and please put new/unrelated content at the end. --[[User:Evilkolbot|Evilkolbot]] 12:56, 4 July 2006 (CDT)

===HP and increasing ML===
I always had the impression that when increasing ML, the amount of hp it gained was equal to the increase in level. However I just smacked an elite guard for 31 damage with MCD at 1 (and no other increasers, so it should've had 30+1 hp), and it didn't die. Is there a variation with the increaser? Or is it in the base? Maybe I'm not fully aware of the monster HP system, but I thought that a monster's base HP is fixed --[[User:Nappa|Nappa]] 11:56, 11 October 2006 (CDT)
*There's that possiable +1 HP or so from variance, and +ML does result in a 1 ML - 1 HP increase so your guard could have had 32HP. --[[User:Sniddy|Sniddy]] 17:28, 11 February 2007 (CST)
**That comment was made when [[Monster Level#Monster Level Variance|monster level variance]] was (even less) understood. And although I don't think that the exact rate of variance is known, I'm pretty sure it varies more for higher level monsters (not that the monster in question in one by any means). --[[User:TheDotGamer|TheDotGamer]] 21:15, 12 February 2007 (CST)

===Entangling Noodles change===
Maybe someone could change the entangling noodles entry in the table? I can't format and edit stuff for my life so maybe someone could see to it... --[[User:Kenny Siu|Kenny]] 10:44, 23 February 2007 (CST)
:Done, although since it now doesn't delevel at all now, I simply removed it from the table.  --[[User:Starwed|Starwed]] 11:06, 23 February 2007 (CST)

===Scaling Monsters and the Mind Control Device===
This page states that scaling monsters are not affected by ML-modifying effects.  Does this include Von Ratsworth?  If so, the Boss Boss trophy (which requires beating him with the dial at 11) makes less sense than usual.  I'm just wondering if it has been tested and, if so, if that testing matches the conclusions here.

===Barrrnacle-type familiars===
The stat gains are taken into account at the start of the fight, and if you use deleveling items, you will still get the raised stats.  But what about Barrrnacle-type familiars?  Do they decrease stat gains or do they?  --[[User:Coogi Hat|Coogi Hat]] 8:47 AM, 6 June 2007

===NS13 Monster Level Variance changes===
I believe I'm seeing some additional [[Monster Level#Monster Level Variance|monster level variance]] from the NS13 monsters -- specifically the ones on the island battlefield. Very preliminary data suggests that the new higher-level monsters may vary by up to 5 points instead of 4. I don't have nearly enough data to say this conclusively, but just wanted to provide a heads-up. --[[User:Harry Crimboween|Harry Crimboween]] 14:30, 14 July 2007 (CDT)

*Whoa. Actually I've seen some rare outliers which appear to have up to +- 10 variance. This is across several different characters, though, so maybe the battlefield monsters are special in some way (e.g. strength varying with # of ascensions). --[[User:Harry Crimboween|Harry Crimboween]] 19:11, 15 July 2007 (CDT)

**Upon further research I think the +- 10 was a goof from having the MCD on. It looks like +- 5 is the right maximum. --[[User:Harry Crimboween|Harry Crimboween]] 18:01, 17 July 2007 (CDT)

== Seperation of ML adjusters and delevelers ==

There is a huge difference between effects which alter monster level (and thus stats gained from battle) and combat items which reduce the power of a monster.  I suggest that these two types of effects should get their own page, or at a minimum clearly separate tables.  --[[User:Starwed|Starwed]] 10:12, 27 September 2007 (CDT)
*I prefer the separate tables idea. Some of the text in the intro section pertains to the combat items, and it makes sense to have everything explained on one central page anyway. --[[User:Bagatelle|Bagatelle]] 17:30, 27 September 2007 (CDT)
**I'd be more inclined to keep them on the same page if any of the items/effects actually used the term "monster level" to describe what they do.  --[[User:Starwed|Starwed]] 17:36, 27 September 2007 (CDT)
**Oh, and looking at the intro text, I think some of it is simply wrong.  IIRC, the base monster level (used to determine stats) is not attack + defense / 2, but simply the attack.  Also, I think that the various "deleveling" abilities don't lower HP, while changing ML does, right?  --[[User:Starwed|Starwed]] 17:47, 27 September 2007 (CDT)
***OK, after re-reading the article and the associated [http://jick-nerfed.us/forums/viewtopic.php?t=218 HCO] thread, I agree some rewriting for truthiness is required (contingent on the HCO stuff still being accurate post-NS13 -- the hit chance formula there looks like the old version). The HCO post notes that +x ML boosts attack, defense, and HP by x as well, and nowhere in the Wiki article is this explicitly stated. HCO also [http://jick-nerfed.us/forums/viewtopic.php?t=218&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=207 states] that as of NS13, it's not the case that most monsters have attack = defense. The definition of ML on the Wiki article (average of attack and defense) is cumbersome, arbitrary, and not particularly useful. Someone in the HCO thread mentioned that the [[Hovering Sombrero]] formula has always used ML, but is this the mean of attack and defense, or attack? HCO says delevelling doesn't affect HP, and this can be easily confirmed by using a non-damaging item ([[Knob Goblin stink bomb]]) repeatedly; if it lowers HP, it'd kill the monster, right? And finally, back to your original point of moving the "delevel" ([[Fire Orange Bottle-Rocket]] actually uplevels in combat), they could probably go into the [[Weapon Damage]] page; I think that's where the attack/defense values would be used most heavily. --[[User:Bagatelle|Bagatelle]] 21:54, 28 September 2007 (CDT)
****Anytime anyone anywhere refers to ML as if it were a known value for all monsters, they're referring to the attack.  (Because that's what determines the stats you get.  At some point in the distant past it was thought that stats were determined by the average of attack and defense; this page's definition of ML is a relic from that era, and not followed anywhere else on the wiki.)  --[[User:Starwed|Starwed]] 00:37, 1 October 2007 (CDT)

I went ahead and split the main table.  I'm thinking that the weapons which delevel should be split from combat items, so I might do that later.  There's still some conflation of the two types of level modification in the other tables.  --[[User:Starwed|Starwed]] 11:20, 1 November 2007 (CDT)
:Yeah I'll leave it up to you, Starwed, if this is a work in progress, but I'd like to see the "dependent on another mechanic" table simply removed and its contents put into the "True modifiers" and "Combat effects" tables. --[[User:Prestige|Prestige]] 19:28, 2 November 2007 (CDT)

Could we make a "Zones (by ML)" page? Might be useful to some. --[[User:Antoids|Antoids]] 19:12, 14 April 2008 (CDT)
*That's essentially what [[Safe Adventuring]] is. Just subtract 7 from all the numbers to get the ML of an area. --[[User:TechSmurf|TechSmurf]] 19:23, 14 April 2008 (CDT)

==Conflicting Variance Figures==
The page seems to provide two competing formulas for monster level variance (one right after the other).  First it says attack (which is also ML) varies by at most 4 in either direction, but then it says that the variance for ML is 5% in either direction.  This starts making a meaningful difference at higher levels.  If the shimmering portal stats are right, the maximum monster level is either 404 or 420, for example.  For ascension, this is also relevant when trying to do safe adventuring in high-level zones, as an ML variance of 8 could cause some of the monsters to hit you very frequently when a variance of just 4 is tolerable.  So which is the current reigning theory?  Do I fail at reading comprehension, mayhaps?

I'm guessing one of these is a relic of some preliminary spading long ago that has somehow never been removed from the page, but frankly I can't be arsed to sift through the edit history right now to figure out when each figure was added (and by whom).  --[[User:Flargen|Flargen]] 19:53, 14 April 2008 (CDT)

*Variance seems to be min(5,floor(ML*.05)), so it's a combination of the two.  The spading for monster variation is being done by the big clans right now, so hopefully we'll see some new results soon.-[[User:QuantumNightmare|QuantumNightmare]] 19:58, 14 April 2008 (CDT)

== Defence / Defense ==
But...the correct spelling is defence!  Why go through the paragraphs I wrote and put unconventional everywhere?-[[User:QuantumNightmare|QuantumNightmare]] 03:39, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
*I guess it's just depends on what you <s>favour</s> favor more. 
*:...Moure? --[[User:TechSmurf|TechSmurf]] 03:59, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
**Since both spellings are just as correct, and that the old spelling was consistent throughout the article, can I revert back to the original "defence"?  I'd like to avoid an edit war, but see nothing wrong with how the page was written originally.-[[User:QuantumNightmare|QuantumNightmare]] 04:48, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
***That's because you're dirty and like using c's in places the good lord never intended.  The "c" spelling is principally British, anyway.  --[[User:Flargen|Flargen]] 05:05, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
****It's our last defence against the american cultural invasion.  If us canadians start writing "defence" and "favor", we'll wake up one morning as the 51st state.  For the confederation and hockey!-[[User:QuantumNightmare|QuantumNightmare]] 17:34, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
*****Don't you think it's a little arrogant to impose your neoconservative spelling rules on everyone when you are in a clear minority position? You had better hope your sweater vests are in good repair when the opposition parties form a coalition to toss you out into the cold. --Bagatelle<sup>[[User talk:Bagatelle|T]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/Bagatelle|C]]</sub> 00:23, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
******Don't make me get Michaëlle to come spank you, Mr Lame Duck.  When I say "defence", you say "yes sir".-[[User:QuantumNightmare|QuantumNightmare]] 03:10, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
*TPTB spell it "defense," as in: '''''November 30''' - A monster's HP now increases, in addition to its power and defense, if its level is increased by any means.'' --[[User:Itsatrap|Itsatrap]] 19:05, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
*Do we really need a WP:LAME section...--[[User:Toffile|Toffile]] 20:38, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

== Measuring? ==

Just wondering, how do you measure the ML of an area? It would help with my slime tube runs. [[User:Sean12349999|Sean12349999]] 11:59, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

My minimally educated guess would be as follows: ML for an area is a range, rather than a fixed number in most cases. It is based on a number of things and gauged mostly in part to much spading of the monsters therein and the experience received, ability to hit, damage received, etc and so forth. Some area's monsters scale to the player. The Slime Tube has a fixed ML that is affected by the number of squeezes done (+20 per squeeze), as well as player's ML (gear and buffs). The level of the monsters themselves hit the next tier every 200 ML I THINK. I'm not an expert on this at all. I haven't done a speed run yet either, so I can't really speak from experience. --[[User:Spiny Twizzler|Spiny Twizzler]] 20:37, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

== Seal Clubber Clubs ==
The various -ass clubs made for and by Seal Clubbers have +ML on them, should they be added to the table? --[[User:Spiny Twizzler|Spiny Twizzler]] 20:28, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

== ML/NC Interaction ==
Shouldn't the ML/NC interaction section be removed from the page? --[[User:Psly4mne|Psly4mne]] 00:45, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

== Slime Hates It ==
Which section should this go and how? --[[User:JohnAnon|JohnAnon]] 02:48, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

== Triangular Distribution ==

I've noticed in other spading, but I've recently had an opportunity to collect a whole lot of data. You can see it here: http://kolspading.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=37&p=1187#p1187 where I'm testing how MA vs. ML affects the initiative formula.
--[[User:Foggy|Foggy]] 13:25, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

== spoilerific data ==

so it turns out just about every item with a range of delevling delevels attack and defense independently of one-another. how should we indicate this on this page? --[[User:Silent Knight|<span title="SilentKnight (#119812)">SilentKnight</span>]] 07:16, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Mini-Hipster's scathing review action gave this message: Monster attack power reduced by 3, Monster defense reduced by 4. Not sure if this is affected by weight, but he was 20 pounds at the time.--[[User:Ataradan|Ataradan]] 04:05, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

== Done For Today ==

I've gone through the complete Combat Items list for everything list, and with the exception of Psalm of Pointiness and sake bomb, everything has been confirmed to display a delevelling message. In addition, each item's main page lists the message.

For now, I'm going to note the following items still need spading, as they apparently delevel:
(all done)--[[User:Foggy|Foggy]] 21:43, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

For Crown of Thrones, there were three familiars I couldn't check:
* Dramatic Hedgehog
* Slimeling
* Baby Yeti

Would someone be able to check these?
--[[User:Foggy|Foggy]] 16:11, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

== ML and scaling monsters ==

The intro states that "Monster level modifiers in effect before the fight begins typically do not affect scaling monsters in any way. "  I believe this is generally false, and most scaling monsters around these days are affected by ML normally, right?  We should list any exceptions, obviously.  --[[User:Starwed|Starwed]]

== Damage Reduction ==

I have tried to spade the exact formula for damage reduction from monster level. It appears that the damage reduction is roughly ML/250, capped at 0.5 . There appears to be some strange rounding going on though.

Here is my data, obtained by casting capped Canneloni Cannon with Bringing Up The Rear (100 damage cap) and Subtle And Quick To Anger (+10%) against Pygmy Orderlies (double group damage), so unreduced damage is 220. Unfortunetly, my resources were quite limted, so I couldn't get much better data.

The damage is exactly equal to ceil(ceil(100*(1-ML/250))*2.2), except at the 114 ML data point, which is 1 off.

<pre>
ML	Damage	Reduction
0	220	0.00%
1	220	0.00%
2	220	0.00%
3	218	0.91%
4	218	0.91%
5	216	1.82%
6	216	1.82%
7	216	1.82%
8	214	2.73%
9	214	2.73%
10	212	3.64%
14	209	5.00%
19	205	6.82%
24	201	8.64%
29	196	10.91%
34	192	12.73%
39	187	15.00%
44	183	16.82%
49	179	18.64%
54	174	20.91%
59	170	22.73%
64	165	25.00%
69	161	26.82%
74	157	28.64%
79	152	30.91%
84	148	32.73%
89	143	35.00%
94	139	36.82%
99	135	38.64%
104	130	40.91%
109	126	42.73%
114	122	44.55%
119	117	46.82%
122	115	47.73%
123	113	48.64%
124	113	48.64%
125	110	50.00%
129	110	50.00%
134	110	50.00%
139	110	50.00%
144	110	50.00%
</pre>


--Missim 12:18, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

== "...and may land ordinary attacks even when heavily outmoxied" ==

Well this is definitely true. At +189 ML, a [[pygmy witch accountant]] was able to hit me pretty regularly, even though he only had 339 attack to my 755 moxie. I guess what needs spading at this point is the numbers. --[[User:Billybobfred|billybobfred]] ([[User talk:Billybobfred|talk]]) 16:39, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

== Damage Done at the Start of a Battle by Elementally Aligned Monsters ==

I'm not sure what the damage is based off. So far, I have done HP, ATK, and DEF to see if they factor in how much damage is dealt.

<pre>Smarmy Pirate
Actual	Stabilised	HP	ATK	DEF	Dmg from elemental aligned mon	Element
ORIGINAL		55	65	58	N/A
+55 ML 	(+30 ML)	110	120	113	1 dmg 				Sleazy
+60 ML	(+35 ML)	115	125	118	1 dmg				Sleazy
+61 ML	(+36 ML)	116	126	119	1 dmg				Sleazy
+62 ML	(+37 ML)	117	127	120	1 dmg				Sleazy
+63 ML	(+38 ML)	118	128	121	2 dmg				Sleazy
+64 ML	(+39 ML)	119	129	122	3 dmg				Sleazy
+65 ML	(+40 ML)	120	130	123	3 dmg				Sleazy

Oil Baron
ORIGINAL		60	85	77	N/A
+65 ML	(+40 ML)	125	150	142	4 dmg				Sleazy

Battlie Knight Ghost
ORIGINAL		40	79	64	N/A
+65 ML	(+40 ML)	105	141	129	3 dmg/4 dmg			Spooky
+63 ML	(+38 ML)	103	139	127	2 dmg				Spooky

Claybender Sorcerer Ghost
ORIGINAL		40	70	70	N/A
+65 ML	(+40 ML)	105	135	135	2 dmg				Spooky
+63 ML	(+38 ML)	103	133	133	2 dmg				Spooky

Whatsian Commander Ghost
ORIGINAL		40	78	62	N/A				
+63 ML	(+38 ML)	103	141	125	1 dmg				Spooky</pre>

From the results, it doesn't look like it is affected by HP, ATK, and DEF. I suspect it may be the amount of HP the players have, but I'm not sure.

[[User:RobuxShooters|RobuxShooters]] ([[User talk:RobuxShooters|talk]]) 08:19, 27 January 2018 (UTC)