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[[Talk:Proposed Standards-Archive|Past discussions]] have been archived.
<div style="border: 1px solid #55aa55; padding: .5em 1em; color: #000; background-color: #ccffcc; margin: 3px 3px 0; text-align: center; font-size:100%"><center>The Proposed Standards page should now be used for discussion of said standards. Previous discussions are available [[Talk:Proposed Standards/archive|here]].</center></div>
 
=Items=
==Drop Location vs. Notes==
When an item does not drop ingame, but rather is obtaine by using a different item, I personally feel that this information should be placed under "Notes", although I've seen a few people add it under "Drop Location" instead. What should be the norm? --[[User:Aardvark|Aardvark]] 03:28, 8 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
*I would say that it should be put in an "Obtained From" section - this is consistant with the Effects approach.  --[[User:Gymnosophist|Gymnosophist]] 01:57, 9 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
:*I'm belatedly retracting my "Obtained From" suggestion.  The Notes section has grown on me.  :)  --[[User:Gymnosophist|Gymnosophist]] 20:07, 17 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
I think it would be nice if the items had a link directly to the monster/s that drop it, maybe along with the drop location. It's mainly ease of navigation I suggest this for. If I know an item but not the monster that drops it, I have to first go to the location, then look through a list of all possible adventures there to find the monster that drops it. (I know the location should be enough, but I like to know things)--[[User:Gorgolok|Gorgolok]] 10:15, 17 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
*I meant to respond to this earlier, but things got away from me.  I like the idea, but there are a few items that are dropped by 3,4, or even 5 monsters all in the same area.  It might make things too crowded.  What if we listed up to 2 (or maybe up to 3) monsters, but if there were 3 or more (or maybe 4 or more) monsters, we would just say something like "(various monsters)" instead of the full list?  --[[User:Gymnosophist|Gymnosophist]] 00:58, 30 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
I would like to see, under the adventure locations pages, that the item drops information is accurate. For example, under "Completely Different Spider," the location shows that "spider web" drops. In the actual fight text, though, it is apparent that multiple webs can drop. Could this be reflected in the locations page? --[[User:Barnaby36|Barnaby36]] 21:08, 28 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
*These pages should always match up, but there are probably a few missed things here and there.  I fixed the spider, but if you see a mismatch, either fix it (if you know for certain what is correct), or put up a needs work template.  --[[User:Gymnosophist|Gymnosophist]] 00:58, 30 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
==Table of Contents==
Another thought. I can't think of any items that would EVER need a ToC. I can add the <nowiki>__NOTOC__</nowiki> command into the item header template to ALWAYS prevent loading of the table of contents on pages using the template, but wanted to check to make sure that I wouldn't mess anyone up by doing so. --[[User:Aardvark|Aardvark]] 03:31, 8 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
I notice nobody ever commented on this, and the itemheader template still doesn't have this. I think that's a fine idea -- I can't see why any items would ever need a ToC, either. -- [[User:Old Ned|Old Ned]] 01:44, 2 Oct 2005 (MDT)
 
==Collected By==
I have started (re)noticing people putting "Collected by XXXXX" in the '''Notes''' section of some items.  Personally, I think this is an indirect way of begging and that what someone collects should stick to being put in a players profile page, rather than cluttering up the item pages.  I can picture items with lists and lists of names under them, especially things like [[toast]], which for someone reason everybody and their mothers collect.  Also see some points made on this issue in [[Talk:Bloody beer]] last month. So.. what are your thoughts? --[[User:JRSiebz|JRSiebz]] 04:11, 10 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
Well... I only added the things I collect because I notice that (almost) no one else collects them, and the items are all related to my name.  When I started KoL I didn't know these items existed, and when some people started sending them to me I just started a collection...  And my thoughts are that items with tons of collectors shouldn't be collected at all if they're useful items, or just very common.  --[[User:Papaya|Papaya]] 04:19, 10 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
*I'm loathing it (and not in a good way!).  This stuff should be on the player's profile page.  But, if we feel that we absolutely ''must'' track this sort of thing, then maybe an acceptable compromise would be to create a separate Collections page, rather than cluttering up the item pages.
:* Another thing I loathe (August 10 - World Loathing Day) is [[The Subtle Knife]]'s store section.  It's worse than useless.  This isn't the place to peddle outdated lists of overpriced crap. That's what [[The Mall of Loathing|advertising]] is for!  This should be unilaterally nipped in the bud.  --[[User:Gymnosophist|Gymnosophist]] 10:43, 10 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
::* I agree about the "Store" section. It doesn't belong here, and it's pretty much unreadable anyway since s/he doesn't use any <nowiki><br></nowiki> tags. -- [[User:Old Ned|Old Ned]] 18:40, 29 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
:* Full agreement on the "Collected by" tags. They need to be limited to player pages. --[[User:Snickles|Snickles]] 14:02, 10 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
:*While I agree that there is no need to keep track of which players are collecting which items, people might find it useful to keep track of which players are ''buying'' which items.  Thoughts? -- [[User:Baltar|Baltar]] 20:40, 10 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
::*I fully agree with Baltar: 'Collected by' seems like an advertise, while we *may* accept 'Bought By' links, in the interest of new players who want to make some quick money.-- [[User:Worthstream|Worthstream]] 05:12, 19 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
:::*I disagree. Something like this is always going to favour individuals. People who don't use the Wiki will most likely not get on these lists, thereby missing out on the opportunity for (what amounts to) free advertising.--[[User:Gorgolok|Gorgolok]] 11:10, 19 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
::::*Well, we're already doing some free advertising for collectors in the little box in the left-hand pane on every page, just above the PayPal link. But people can ignore that pretty easily while they're focusing on the text. Having the ads actually ''in'' the text is going a bit too far. I think both "Collect by" and "Bought by" should not be allowed. -- [[User:Old Ned|Old Ned]] 18:40, 29 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
* Playing with an idea seen on Wikipedia, what about facilitating players to modify their own pages and the coresponding category for collectors.  I've tossed an example on my page and it uses [[Template:User collector]] (based off of [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:User_en a template for languages] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Ajnewbold for an example of its use.  Given the proper place to present and collect the information it could be helpful.  (If not, admin types feel free to clean up the associated pages) --[[User:Shagie|Shagie]] 21:39, 29 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
:*The whole concept of tracking collections has been, at best, only begrudgingly accepted.  We have set up a [[Item Collectors]] page, but it's pretty low profile.  The template appearance is nice, but the category is problematic for a couple of reasons.
:#Having categories  directly on User pages is apparently something of a no-no, for reasons that I can't really explain.
:#We're trying to keep a lid on new categories (see [[:Talk:Proposed Standards#Funky Categories and Metastructure]]).
:#We're currently debating ''decreasing'' support of collectors, not ''increasing'' it.
So, could I ask you to remove the category from your template (and I'll delete it later, barring further developments).  Maybe put in a link to [[Item Collectors]] if you like.  Thanks.  P.S. - you're doing some pretty snazzy things, and I'm looking forward to seeing the next thing you do! --[[User:Gymnosophist|Gymnosophist]] 22:38, 29 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
:*I don't care much for the category, the template probably should be renamed from [[Template:User collector]] to [[Template:Collector]].  Cateogories on user pages, bad, categories on player pages, ok.  If we keep the category, it probably should be pluraled as [[:Category:Collectors]].  The only non-plural categories here are [[:Category:Player]] and [[:Category:Adventure]], which would be a project to say the least.--[[User:JRSiebz|JRSiebz]] 02:07, 30 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
::* My two meat stacks... The wikis that tend to be the most successful are those that have a thriving community behind them.  As collectors are part of the KoL community (and encouraged to the extent that there is a display case and the hall of records with collections) it would help the wiki's community to support them to some degree.  I certainly agree that the collectors in the notes section is an eyesore and poorly placed.  However, providing a template and category for them should help establish an accepted way to have this information - just as a house with a toy room tends to be cleaner because toys have their designated place, so would the wiki.  --[[User:Shagie|Shagie]] 15:44, 30 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
:::*I like the template. Not sure I'm so hot about the category. Not sure I'm so hot about [[Item Collectors]] either, though. If we nuke the [[Item Collectors]] page, I won't object to a category. Probably better that way. <rant>As for user pages... I seriously wish all of our vanity non-notables with 0 contributions would use the user namespace for their "im soo cool" pages. And of course, not categorize it.</rant>--<font color="blue">Aa</font><font color="green">rd</font><font color="yellow">va</font><font color="orange">rk</font> <small>([[User talk:Aardvark|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Aardvark|Contribs]])</small> 06:20, 30 Sep 2005 (MDT)
 
=Trophies=
 
We don't have a standard example for [[trophy]] pages.  Anyone think we should just make a template?  And we need a agreement on the name for the emerging '''Trophy Maker text''' section. --[[User:JRSiebz|JRSiebz]] 15:18, 15 Sep 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
= Linking =
One thing I've come across and I'd like people's opinions about is linking withing descriptions of items. For instance, I just added a picture to [[blue pixel potion]], and [[MP]] is linked in the description. I thought that was kind of silly, but didn't change it. Even sillier, I added a picture to something earlier that had [[Meat]] linked in the autosell price. I'm somewhat of the opinion that we shouldn't bother linking basic terms like MP and Meat in most descriptions. What do others think? -- [[User:TheArchivist|TheArchivist]] 19:21, 13 Jun 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
*I agree.  It's pretty silly to even CONSIDER trying to link every item to things like [[meat]].  It's downright absurd.  Everything has the term in it's description, or nearly everything.  Those are terms that anyone visiting this site should already know.  --[[User:Jinya|jin]] 19:26, 13 Jun 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
 
I think you're on to something, TheArchivist. I'd fully support the support of that template. The other one just looks so drab.
 
*I think I've cleaned out most of the superfluous meat/booze/food/MP/HP links.  --[[User:Gymnosophist|Gymnosophist]] 16:09, 5 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
==Zapping==
 
Depending on the number of zappable items it might not be a bad idea to think about how recipes should be displayed. Do recipes go into [[Zapping]] and/or will they be included with the individual items? In case of the latter, will item descriptions get a subheader "Zaps into" or will there be a recipe graphic with the wand?
*Both places sounds good to me.  For individual items, we can put the zapping information (either text or a mini zap table with a wand icon) in either the Notes section or perhaps a new Zapping section.  In the zapping page, we could have a master list of zap triplets (assuming that they are in fact triplets).  Before we get too far with this, we might want to nail down if zapping transmutes things in a fixed order and what differance, if any, the wand type makes.  --[[User:Gymnosophist|Gymnosophist]] 15:33, 20 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
*The thread in the KoL Forums has established that zapping does not go in a fixed order; it's random as to which of the other set members you get. More than one person reported zapping item A to item B, and then back to item A on the next zap instead of item C. I also get the impression that many things don't zap at all, so I think a master list in one place would be easier to maintain than notes on every individual item. Maybe the items that do zap could just have a link to the zapping page for details. -- [[User:Old Ned|Old Ned]] 18:47, 29 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
*I believe the proper way to handle zapping on the Wiki is to set up 'zap class' templates.  Thus 'barbed wire fence' and 'white picket fence' would be part of the same zap class as would 'tamarind flavored gum' and 'pickle flavored gum'.  This would look much the same as [[Template:saucepan]] does.  --[[User:Shagie|Shagie]] 19:41, 29 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
::I've tossed up [[Template:Zap_brownie]] as an example of what this should look like. --[[User:Shagie|Shagie]] 19:51, 29 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
:*Replying to both [[User:Old Ned|Old Ned]] and [[User:Shagie|Shagie]],  yes, the randomness seems to be confirmed.  I set up a [[:Template:ItemsByName|master list]] for testing purposes which is linked to from the [[zapping]] page, and yes, many things don't zap.  There's still lots of testing to be done, but I think we're at the point that we can start talking about the structure and layout of zapping data on a per item basis.  I think that a master list approach is too cumbersome and too user-unfriendly an approach and that we should instead have a '''Zapping''' section on every item page.  If an item is in a zapping group, then there would be some sort of template, otherwise, just a short note saying that the item can't be zapped.  On the zapping template itself, some thoughts on the [[Template:Zap_brownie]] example:
:#The slash icon should be on the left to be consistant with current usage (see the [[Herb brownies]] recipe for example).
:#The color is nice, but perhaps it should be subtler so as not to dominate the page (all our item pages are just black and white).
:#I'm not sure if using a single zapping template or using many zapping templates, one for each zap group, is the better approach.  There are advantages and disadvantages to both approaches.
::Thoughts?  --[[User:Gymnosophist|Gymnosophist]] 23:56, 29 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
:::* Several good points...
:::# Slash icon moved
:::# The inital colors used were the toccolours class which is used for the table of contents on a page with a steel blue name.  I've changed this to a white background with a #EEEEEE area for the zapping type and a slightly darker (and quite subtle) border.
:::# Sylisticaly, it should be multiple templates - one for each zap group.  If you try to put everything in one, you'll have the cumbersome problem again.  Technicaly, it should probably be N+1 templates for N zap groups.  The other template would be a template generating template so that style changes to all the templates can be done at once. I'll see if I can hack that properly.  Might need some admin type cleanup afterwards.
:::#* Ok, that did work properly.  [[Template:Zap basic burrito]] makes use of [[Template:Zap tgen]].  This makes writing and modifying the other templates much easier. --[[User:Shagie|Shagie]] 02:09, 30 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
:::--[[User:Shagie|Shagie]] 02:02, 30 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
:::::*I like it.  I especially like the approach that lets you implement style changes with a single change.  Great job!  Lets see what other feedback we get.  --[[User:Gymnosophist|Gymnosophist]] 08:01, 30 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
::::::*I like it as well. Very useful, ESPECIALLY with the new DoD Rings class. None of those can be obtained any other way... As for the meta template... err, not so hot. If I were to make a change to [[Template:Zap tgen]], [[Template:Zap basic burrito]] would fail to update with the change, until I (or someone else) ran a purge command on it. Which kinda defeats the point of it. --<font color="blue">Aa</font><font color="green">rd</font><font color="yellow">va</font><font color="orange">rk</font> <small>([[User talk:Aardvark|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Aardvark|Contribs]])</small> 06:13, 30 Sep 2005 (MDT)
::::::*In related news, I really don't think that outfits should have zapping templates. They should instead have an outfit template, maybe something like [[User:Aardvark/Sandbox|this]] (also below) --<font color="blue">Aa</font><font color="green">rd</font><font color="yellow">va</font><font color="orange">rk</font> <small>([[User talk:Aardvark|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Aardvark|Contribs]])</small> 08:46, 30 Sep 2005 (MDT)
===Zapping Template Example 1===
----
 
 
{{Zap basic burrito}}
 
===Outfit Template Example 1===
{{User:Aardvark/Sandbox}}
Oh, goodness. Text wraps around this thing a bit too neatly. Sorry bout 'that. --<font color="blue">Aa</font><font color="green">rd</font><font color="yellow">va</font><font color="orange">rk</font> <small>([[User talk:Aardvark|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Aardvark|Contribs]])</small> 08:47, 30 Sep 2005 (MDT)
 
How about...
{{zap_yendorian}}
These are easy to make with the zap_tgen template.
--[[User:Shagie|Shagie]] 11:27, 30 Sep 2005 (MDT)
 
:*True, and it looks good, too. Still, I think a specific outfit template might be better, and could impart more specific data. Although mine is REALLY ugly right now... One thing that could be a concern about regular zap templates is the fact that [[ring of aggravate monster]] will have not one, but TWO zap templates on it, if this format is adapted. Of course, we can always live with that. --<font color="blue">Aa</font><font color="green">rd</font><font color="yellow">va</font><font color="orange">rk</font> <small>([[User talk:Aardvark|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Aardvark|Contribs]])</small> 11:30, 30 Sep 2005 (MDT)
 
::* Take two... using box_tgen to show the image.  Considering making a version of zap_tgen for outfit_tgen to do the dress up image and the tattoo...
{{outfit_yendorian}}
 
--[[User:Shagie|Shagie]] 11:44, 30 Sep 2005 (MDT)
 
:::*It looks really nice. For some reason, I'm think that a right-float infobox would be ideal, but that looks great too. Meta-templates, however (templates called from templates), although they have the advantage in making standardization easier, do have some issues. Mainly, they can create problems with caching, additional server hits, and a handful of other problems. It's great for standardization early on, but eventually, it will be beneficial to change the templates so as NOT to call each other. --<font color="blue">Aa</font><font color="green">rd</font><font color="yellow">va</font><font color="orange">rk</font> <small>([[User talk:Aardvark|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Aardvark|Contribs]])</small> 12:00, 30 Sep 2005 (MDT)
 
::::* As long as the templates are cleanly written its not a signficant issue for meta-templates.  Additionaly, while I like this color scheme it is still up in the air.  Meta templates alow the entire system to be changed cleanly.  Just don't nest them too deeply or try to call one template and have an argument as another template.  As to float right, while I like it it does not appear to be an accepted standard on this wiki (trying to keep the feel of the top part of the page as similar to the game as possible).  A float right template might clash with the item pages. --[[User:Shagie|Shagie]] 12:14, 30 Sep 2005 (MDT)
 
= Images =
 
*One problem I've noticed is that the filename "lime.gif" is used twice, once for the saber-toothed lime monster and once for the lime item. I can only suggest that one of them be renamed stlime.gif or something. --[[User:Agent Lex|Agent Lex]] 19:10, 18 Jun 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
*Another problem: the image wa.gif won't upload, since the filename (excluding extension) has to be at least three characters long. I'll rename it wa1.gif for now. --[[User:Agent Lex|Agent Lex]] 21:51, 18 Jun 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
*It seems that the filename dolphin.gif is also in use by an adventure image. I have renamed it to '''vtrinket.gif''' --[[User:Aardvark|Aardvark]] 04:13, 19 Jun 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
*Chest.gif is also used twice. I have renamed it to '''item_chest.gif'''. --[[User:Aardvark|Aardvark]] 06:11, 19 Jun 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
*For bugbears: ''bugbear.gif'' is the animated tattoo.  If you want the static bugbear image, use ''haiku2.gif''.  The casino pack of cards image is ''cards.gif''.  If you need an adventure image, use ''cards_.gif''. --[[User:Hubert rawlinson|Hubert rawlinson]] 08:23, 23 Jun 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
*Both the Adventure [[Luminosity]] and the item [[inexplicably glowing rock]] use glowrock.gif for their image. The adventure has been renamed to adv_glowrock.gif. --[[User:Einstein9073|Einstein9073]] 01:49, 30 Jun 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
==Monster HP?==
I've noticed that monster HP is not shown when looking at any of the area pages. Seeing that the adventure template is a bit restrictive, since it's used for all adventures, another method has to be found if we want to list out the HP of the different monsters on pages like [[The Sleazy Back Alley]]. Any comments or thoughts on this, or is leaving monster hp to the individual adventure pages more effective? -- [[User:Krazedout|Krazedout]] 06:12, 21 Jun 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
:*I wasn't even aware we were listing monster HP. It's impossible to get an accurate number, for one, and for two, I haven't seen it listed on either the location page or the adventure page. It might be something worth adding, but we won't be able to do any better than estimate. --[[User:Aardvark|Aardvark]] 06:31, 21 Jun 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
::* Well, I was thinking of using a detective skull for determining the HP. I read from subjunctive KoL that it's margin of error is only 5 HP, which would serve for most cases. The problem comes when monsters scaled according to level comes into the picture. -- [[User:Krazedout|Krazedout]] 09:14, 21 Jun 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
:::*Perhaps we should keep a running record of monster hp on the discussion page of each monster, until the true range is determined. I'd consider that information very valuable. In addition, I think we need to come up with a way of measuring monster offensive capability. Perhaps THM0? ;) --[[User:Snickles|Snickles]] 22:26, 28 Jun 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
::::*I've started collecting some monster HP statistics. I'm fighting barehanded against monsters at the Knoll and dealing 1-2 damage per hit, making it easy to determine how many hitpoints the monsters have. So far, it seems that monsters at the Knoll have a single hitpoint value; perhaps at later areas where the stat gains vary, the hitpoints vary too. I'll start posting hitpoint values on the discussion pages for each monster. -- [[User:TheArchivist|TheArchivist]] 23:02, 29 Jun 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
:::::* I'm doing the same. Even if one is not fighting bare-handed, it is possible to narrow down the range of hp to a single value.That does require a lot of fights, tough. It would be easy to get that amount of info through collaboration, and we could get that by starting to post hp on the main monster page.I suppose that, until it is'n approved as a standard, discussion page should do.[[User:Worthstream|Worthstream]] 05:24, 25 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
:::::*A detective skull and/or clockwork detective skull might be of help.  They're not exact, but they're pretty damned close.  --[[User:Jinya|jin]] 23:06, 29 Jun 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
::::::* By using a lot of fights we could get the exact number of hp, so the detective skull wouldn't be necessary. [[User:Worthstream|Worthstream]] 05:24, 25 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
::::*Snickles' idea is a good one. Supposedly, monster HP is a fixed number, so if you add the damage you do to a monster, you can get a range of numbers for mmonster HP (its HP is equal or lower than the total damage you did to the monster, but higher than the damage you did up till the penultimate turn. So if a bunch of us record these numbers and write them in each monster's discussion page, we should get a low margin of error in not too much time. But if we do this, we shouldn't record numbers when we're using items that boost monster level - I guess that boosts their HP too. --[[User:pcentella|pcentella]] 8:15, 11 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
:::::* I'm using an annoying pitchfork to boost moster's level, and i've not noticed any hp change on Knob's elite guard. They have 30hp at their level, and 30hp 5 levels higher.[[User:Worthstream|Worthstream]] 05:27, 25 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
Along this line of thinking, check out this [http://forums.kingdomofloathing.com/viewtopic.php?t=36962 post] from the KoL forum; it has some general information about how monster damage is calculated. Although other posts indicate that the information is only partially correct, the information is still valuable. --[[User:Snickles|Snickles]] 17:16, 14 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
= Equipment Listings =
I've been looking at the equipment listings (... by power) and think that some more separation needs to be done.
 
I suggest giving items that are unique backgrounds of Pale Weak Red; items that no longer drop or are otherwise restricted in quantity backgrounds of Pale Dull Orange; and items requiring extraordinary effort or outside intervention backgrounds of Pale Dull Yellow. Further, the previous alternating background is now confusing; I recommend sticking with the very pale gray. See example below.
 
(I'm not emotionally invested in the colors; just the idea.) (Either this, or removing non-dropping items into a separate list. Or creating new lists with just items currently available.)
--[[User:Einstein9073|Einstein9073]] 04:27, 4 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
:*Ack! I'm not against differentiation, but... unh-uh. Perhaps we could come up with some sort of icon for those purposes, but these colors clash, are confusing, and generally oogly. It might look better using differing grays, much like the recipes table, but I think it would still get confusing. --[[User:Aardvark|Aardvark]] 06:55, 4 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
*I agree, these colors are horrid.  And the proposed system for them is rather superficial.  We could perhaps make the backgrounds different for items that don't drop, and get rid of the alternating thing.  Maybe a black background and white font on items that are not drops?  I changed some of the table above...  What do you think of THOSE colors?--[[User:Jinya|jin]] 08:28, 5 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
:*I like the concept, but I'm still not too keen on the colors.  The black background in particular makes the linked text unreadable.  I'm in favor of a subtler palate - white for standard stuff with shades of gray for rare stuff (and yes, get rid of the alternating colors - it makes it a nightmare to edit).  I actually have a lot more trouble with the classification scheme than I do with the color scheme.  Some thoughts:
:**Custom Items, bug blades and other stuff you could never ever hope to get gets the darkest shade.
:**Ultra rares and, I guess, Mafia prizes are a shade lighter.
:**Not so rare stuff is the lightest.  But I'm not sure what should be treated as a not-so-rare. Should Mr. A. familiars be not-so-rares?  They're kinda pricey, especially the older ones.  Crimbo stuff goes for almost as much as a hypnodisk - should it be treated like Ultra rares?  And Mr. A itself - a not-so-rare?  What about the spooky hockey mask, going for "only" 500K - a not-so-rare?
:**And there are plenty of deimplemented items that are almost dirt cheap - Ent Cider, kneecapping stick, etc. Maybe a forth shade for these?
:*Again, I really like the idea, but the devil's in the details.  Maybe a single shade of grey that is used for every flavor of rare? Or maybe use a set of icons?  --[[User:Gymnosophist|Gymnosophist]] 16:53, 5 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
::*I'm in favor of using a set of icons. Neat, and easy to read. It might be a decent idea to alternate colors for stylistic reasons, but not for data reasons. Something like Example 2, below. Again, however, that's more of a style preference, and not anything of import.--[[User:Aardvark|Aardvark]] 17:58, 5 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
*I like the idea of icons - I think that might be most intuitive. It'd be easy if we create a template. Howver, I think items you '''cannot''' (or can no longer) earn (Custom items, Time Juice, Mob Penguin Cell Phones) should be in the darkest color (or icon) and items you can only earn through extraordinary effort (Mr. A., Bugfinder, Radio KoL, Ultra Rares) be in a middle shade (or icon).<br>
Further, I think if we use shades of gray, the shades need to be sufficiently far apart to differentiate them. #FFF is too close to #EEE or #DDD to be immediately obvious. #FFF, #CCC, #999, #666, #333, #000 - Web-safe grays.
--[[User:Einstein9073|Einstein9073]] 19:21, 5 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
*The more I think about it, the more I like the icons and the less I like the gray shade scheme.  Depending on how finegrained the classification scheme is, we could easily outstrip the number of available gray shades.  Whereas for icons, there's no reason that we couldn't use colors.  --[[User:Gymnosophist|Gymnosophist]] 19:55, 5 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
*Okay, how about this: Anything that will not drop during gameplay is given a dark background. (#999) Items that do are given a white background. (#FFF) (And maybe a medium background for ultra-rares, or not. Whatever.) For those items that do not drop, an icon could be added explaining why. --[[User:Einstein9073|Einstein9073]] 20:01, 6 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
:*I really don't feel that backgrounds should be used to impart data AT ALL. I'm not against an icon, in a seperate column, which classifies the item, but using backgrounds for any purpose besides a stylistic one isn't a really good idea, in my opinion. It just doesn't look right. --[[User:Aardvark|Aardvark]] 20:09, 6 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
<small>''To see that really ugly first draft, read the history.''</small>
 
==Equipment Listings, Example 2==
<TABLE CELLPADDING=3 CELLSPACING=0 BORDER=1px>
<TH>Name</TH><TH>Power</TH><TH>Requirements</TH><TH>Notes</TH>
<TR ALIGN=center style="background-color: #EEEEEE"><TD>[[Bigger Bugfinder Blade]]</TD><TD>200</TD><TD>85 [[muscle]]</TD><TD>All Attributes +9<br>Awarded to people who find a lot of bugs, or major ones</TD></TR>
<TR ALIGN=center style="background-color: #FFFFFF"><TD>[[fetus-smashing club]]</TD><TD>200</TD><TD>85 muscle</TD><TD>[[Rare Items#Custom Items|Custom Item]]</TD></TR>
<TR ALIGN=center style="background-color: #EEEEEE"><TD>[[Bugfinder Blade]]</TD><TD>180</TD><TD>75 muscle</TD><TD>All Attributes +7<br>Awarded to people who find a few bugs</TD></TR>
<TR ALIGN=center style="background-color: #FFFFFF"><TD>[[steaming evil]]</TD><TD>180</TD><TD>75 muscle</TD><TD>+3 Fire Damage<br>+3 Stench Damage<br>+3 Spooky Damage<br>Only 13 of these exist</TD></TR>
</table>
 
==Equipment Listings, Example 3==
<TABLE CELLPADDING=3 CELLSPACING=0 BORDER=1px>
<TH>Name</TH><TH>Power</TH><TH>Requirements</TH><TH>Notes</TH>
<TR ALIGN=center style="background-color: #CCCCCC"><TD>[[Bigger Bugfinder Blade]]</TD><TD>200</TD><TD>85 [[muscle]]</TD><TD>Gives +1 Adventure</TD></TR>
<TR ALIGN=center style="background-color: #999999"><TD>[[fetus-smashing club]]</TD><TD>200</TD><TD>85 muscle</TD><TD>[[Rare Items#Custom_Items|Custom Item]]</TD></TR>
<TR ALIGN=center style="background-color: #999999"><TD>[[steaming evil]]</TD><TD>180</TD><TD>75 muscle</TD><TD>+3 Fire Damage<br>+3 Stench Damage<br>+3 Spooky Damage<br>Only 13 of these exist</TD></TR>
<TR ALIGN=center style="background-color: #999999"><TD>[[Totally Gay Claymore]]</TD><TD>169</TD><TD>69 muscle</TD><TD>[[Rare Items#Custom_Items|Custom Item]]</TD></TR>
<TR ALIGN=center style="background-color: #FFFFFF"><TD>[[star crossbow]]</TD><TD>165</TD><TD>67 [[moxie]]</TD><TD>Moxie +8</TD></TR>
<TR ALIGN=center style="background-color: #CCCCCC"><TD>[[Radio Free Foil]]</TD><TD>150</TD><TD>60 muscle</TD><TD>Part of the [[Radio Free Regalia]] outfit<br>Intrinsic effect: [[Shiny Happy Weapon]]<br>Radio KoL contest prize</TD></TR>
</table>
 
I think whatever is decided there needs to be an item type of Unique (i.e. things that you can only earn once in a game).
 
=Standards for Effects=
I'm thinking that we should really consider a standard for effects, perhaps roughly based on way we lay out items. Perhaps something like Example 1, below. --[[User:Aardvark|Aardvark]] 20:58, 20 Jun 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
*The thing is that in the game, effects are displayed in a different way to items, like Example 2 below (I haven't linked the effect name because it's not bolded, so a self-link wouldn't be needed). The Effect and Obtained From sections shouldn't change, though. --[[User:Agent Lex|Agent Lex]] 08:37, 23 Jun 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
I've created a template ('cuz I love templates) to layout most of the page according to Example 2, below.
<nowiki>{{effect|name=name|image=image.gif|desc=effect description|effect=Effect}}</nowiki>
This template does '''not''' include the "Obtained From" section, however, because it would lead to a bulky, unwieldy template. That portion should be added into the page body. --[[User:Aardvark|Aardvark]] 19:14, 6 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
*It's been suggested (via a rather irrating direct edit on the main page, rather than through a discussion/consensus) that the duration of the effect be placed in the '''Effect''' subjection. I disagree, because with several effects, the duration differs with the source. See Example 2 below, where the effect can come from one of four different sources, and all four give different durations. --[[User:Aardvark|Aardvark]] 22:48, 8 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
:*Mea culpa, I edited precipitantly.  I ran into something where I thought it was blindingly obvious that a small fix was needed, but didn’t consider the situation where there were some effects with multiple sources and durations.  I remembered that there had been some discussion on effects, but I didn’t think that it had any bearing on this.  Had I checked the discussion page, I would seen the example with the multiple sources and known not to make that change.  Maybe the more complex example should be shown on the standards page?  Just a thought, not an excuse.
 
::But as long as we’re on the subject, the current format is dissonance-inducing in the case of a single source – maybe the duration should be in the Effect section if there’s only one source but in the Obtained From section if there are multiple sources?  But it’s not something I feel strongly about.
 
::I leave it in your more than capable hands as I’m leaving for a poorly timed vacation to London tomorrow… :) --[[User:Gymnosophist|Gymnosophist]] 01:53, 9 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
:::You do have a good point, but I personally feel it's better just to always have it in one standard location. It would seem odd to have it in the obtained from section for some effects, and the effects section for others. --[[User:Aardvark|Aardvark]] 03:46, 9 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
==Example 1==
<center>[[image:sleepy.gif]]<br />[[Sleepy]]</center>
You are very sleepy. Your muscles feel weak.
 
==Example 2==
<center>Sleepy<br>[[image:sleepy.gif]]</center>
 
You are very sleepy. Your muscles feel weak.
 
===Effect===
-30% muscle
===Obtained From===
*[[decorative fountain]] (1 Adventure)
*[[Yummy Tummy bean]] (5 Adventures)
*[[hippy herbal tea]] (10 Adventures)
*[[Dungeons of Doom potion]] (20 Adventures)
 
=Drink Effects=
There doesn't seem to be a template for drink effects.  I was thinking something like:
 
<nowiki>{{Drink|text=You lift the box of wine over your head and open the spigot. Guzzlage ensues.|adv=3|drunk=3|mus=gain no|mys=gain no|mox=gain no}}</nowiki>
 
It would be the same as the standard food template, just with drunkenness instead of fullness.  Is that okay?  I don't know how to make templates. --[[User:Flyingcamel|Flyingcamel]] 8:30, 1 July 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
 
*Looks fine to me.  You just have to go edit the file [[Template:Drink]] and make it look right with some {{variables}} in it.  Then use the code you've got going on there to use it.  --[[User:Jinya|jin]] 17:44, 1 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
:*Agh, as I was looking at the ice-cold beer page I discovered there is a template after all.  It's the exact same as mine except with "Booze" instead of "Drink," and a slot for MP gains.  I'll switch stuff over to that template, put Template:Drink up for deletion, and put the Booze template on the top Standards page for future reference.  Unless you all prefer the no-MP version?  --[[User:Flyingcamel|Flyingcamel]] 18:03, 1 July 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
::*I prefer the no-MP version, myself. It's my view that few enough drinks give MP that it is fairly worthless to include it in the template; that information should be added in addition to the template, not as part of the template. However, it's easier to switch to the template that is being used with greater frequency, we can always edit from there. --[[User:Aardvark|Aardvark]] 20:06, 1 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
:::*Indeed.  I've removed the MP slot from the Booze template, and corrected all four drink pages where any template at all was used :)  --[[User:Flyingcamel|Flyingcamel]] 03:45, 2 July 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
==When Used/Eaten/Drunk Inconsistency==
Currently the standards are "When Used", "Eat Effects", and "Drink Effects", shouldn't it be "Use Effects", "Eat Effects", and "Drink Effects" or "When Used", "When Eaten", "When Drunk"... I think when drunk is the drink equiv. of eaten, past tenses are ate and drank. I prefer the latter with the whens.  Assuming we can hammer down drink/drank/drunk ;-) --[[User:JRSiebz|JRSiebz]] 22:48, 28 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
*If any English majors and/or grammar natzis are out there, here are the verb conjugation tables for [http://www.verbix.com/webverbix/cache/20.eat.html eat] and [http://www.verbix.com/webverbix/cache/20.drink.html drink]. I still can't tell you what pluperfect  is ;-) or which one we want.--[[User:JRSiebz|JRSiebz]] 22:59, 28 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
:*I kinda like '''When Et'''!  :~)  Actually, I like the "When Used", "When Eaten", "When Drunk", but I'm not sure if this is good plu or not (I'm more of a style/organization nazi! ;~) ).
::*"When Used", "When Eaten", and "When Drunk" are perfectly consistent and correct just like that. No need to obsess about what tense that is. -- [[User:Old Ned|Old Ned]] 02:14, 6 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
::*On a tangent, one thing thats always bothered me is how to show the results of "eating" beverages like the [[hippy herbal tea]] - do you eat it or drink it?  Nothing seems quite right here.  --[[User:Gymnosophist|Gymnosophist]] 15:19, 29 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
:::*[[:Category:Beverages]] are wierd like that, yeah you drink them, but they add [[fullness]], so technically they act as if they are [[:Category:Food]]... it must be [[jick]]'s fault.  I guess bevs could have their own template instead of using the food or booze templates.  I think most drinks restore HP or MP and give effects, but don't really gives any [[stats]] ;-) --[[User:JRSiebz|JRSiebz]] 19:48, 29 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
::::*I know that [[hippy herbal tea]] gives Mysticality and [[Ent cider]] gives Moxie, so I think beverages are essentially identical to other food items.  I see no reason why we can't use the regular food template for beverages, especially since the template name is invisible to anyone looking at the page.  On the other hand, if you're worried about the header for these items, what about changing it to "When Consumed" for both food and beverages?  After all, KoL calls 'em "consumables"... -- [[User:Baltar|Baltar]] 19:49, 30 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
:::::*That sounds like a good solution. The regular food template is good because beverages act exactly like food, but a "When Drunk" or "Drink Effects" header for beverages would cause confusion, because people would think they're booze. Booze can still keep the "When Drunk" or "Drink Effects" header. --[[User:Pcentella|Pcentella]] 19:16, 31 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
::::::*So what makes Jumbo Dr. Lucifers a beverage, but not, say, Mountain Stream soda? Is the beverage category currently considered complete, or is it still missing items?<br />Assuming there's a straightforward answer to those questions, the suggestion sounds good to me. My understanding of the suggestion at this point is: for food and non-booze beverages, use the food template and "When Consumed", and for booze use the booze template and "When Drunk", right?  This approach would almost have to use the "When xxxx" format; the main thing about the "xxxx Effects" format is that the xxxx was replaced by the link name for that item: "eat", "drink", or "use", which would still be confusing for beverages. "Consume Effects" wouldn't fit since none of them have a "consume" link. -- [[User:Old Ned|Old Ned]] 02:14, 6 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
:::::::*''"What makes Jumbo Dr. Lucifers a beverage, but not, say, Mountain Stream soda?"'' Jick does, if you open up the in-game item description windows, [[Jumbo Dr. Lucifer]] is of type '''beverage''' and [[Mountain Stream soda]] is of type '''combat / usable item'''. Beverages are considered food because they add fullness like all food does.  Usable items do not ever add fullness, though some may be spleentacular.''"Is the beverage category currently considered complete"'', well there are only like 6 items in KoL that are of item type beverage.  Many other drinks are just usable items.  I guess it's easy to confuse what is considered a beverage in real life, and an item of type beverage in KoL. Also, beverages are listed in the food part of the consumables page of the inventory, not in booze, or in usable items like the soda.--[[User:JRSiebz|JRSiebz]] 03:07, 6 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
::::::::*Aha. Okay, fair enough. How do others feel about the proposal as it stands, then? -- [[User:Old Ned|Old Ned]] 21:07, 8 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
:::::::::*I've been following the discussion with interest but haven't chimed in until now because the "When Consumed" option hasn't, well, consumed me.  But I guess it's the best solution, so I'll vote for the food/beverages get "When Consumed" and booze gets "When Drunk" approach.  --[[User:Gymnosophist|Gymnosophist]] 00:33, 12 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
==Enhanced Booze Template==
What I don't like about the current booze template is that it shows the stat lines for all three stats (Muscle/Myst/Moxie), even if a particular drink only gives you one or two stats (or none at all). Using a technique I <strike>stole</strike> borrowed from the {{[[Template:acquire|acquire]]}} template, I've created a new booze template that allows you to hide the zero-stat lines, called {{[[Template:booze2|booze2]]}} for lack of a better name (suggestions welcome). It looks the same as the current booze template, except that the first three arguments after the template name are positional arguments (in Muscle, Myst, Moxie order) that should have either the value 1 (to display the line corresponding to that stat) or 2 (not to display it).
 
I've put several examples in the Sandbox; see what you all think. If you like it, the Eat template could be enhanced this way as well. -- [[User:Old Ned|Old Ned]] 21:07, 8 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
So nobody has any opinion on the new booze template? Or has it just been quiet here lately? -- [[User:Old Ned|Old Ned]] 21:55, 11 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
*I like it - very slick!  I'd like to see it and a new food template used instead of the current templates.  --[[User:Gymnosophist|Gymnosophist]] 00:19, 12 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
:*Thanks. With that encouragement, I've created a similar food template called, most originally, {{[[Template:food2|food2]]}}. (Again, if anyone has suggestions for better names, feel free to mention them.) I converted the Sandbox's olive stir fry example to the new template; check it out. -- [[User:Old Ned|Old Ned]] 06:01, 14 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
=Funky Categories and Metastructure=
I've noticed that people want to create categories for all sorts of things that don't really deserve a category. Things such as axes, or clan warfare items, or the like. A much better way to group things of that sort is to create a template for the items. If it is a small group (say, less than 10), this shouldn't be a problem, and is makes navigation easier. --[[User:Snickles|Snickles]] 17:03, 24 Jun 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
*Something like the [[template:tinyplastic1]]? I'm all for it.--[[User:Aardvark|Aardvark]] 21:42, 24 Jun 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
:*Exactly. ;) --[[User:Snickles|Snickles]] 22:26, 24 Jun 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
:* I love the tiny plastic template, but I'm not so fond of some of the other navigation templates that are in use.  Probably the ones that I feel most keenly about are the ones like the Clubs template.  This these just duplicates links that are already present in the articles - the [[seal-clubbing club]] already links to the [[Bjorn's Hammer]] which in turn already links back to the [[seal-clubbing club]].  We just don't need a navigation template here.  Also, unlike the tiny plastic template, it looks stylistically askew and out of place.  As to the viewpoint that clubs need/deserve some sort of list or table or navigation template or something, let me note that this catagory has absolutly no meaning or relevance in gameplay and that Jick is hap-hazard in correctly catagorizating items (for example, the pixel sword and the ridiculously huge sword aren't catagorized as swords).  Much of the same is true for the Accordian, Ax, Saucepan and Umbrella templates.  They're just not needed.  If we absolutely must keep some sort of record of this sort of thing, make an Obscure Lists page or something of the like.
 
::OK, a couple more things.  Mushrooms - well, maybe, but still, why?  A better approach might be to have a link in a See Also section that points to the Mushroom Strategy page.  This is probably what a potential clicker is really interested in anyhow.  I think that the Custom Items, Containers and Hardcore rewards are also better served by a See Also section containing a link to a master reference page.
 
::Anyhow, my feeling is that the navigational templates, while nifty, can also be stylistically jarring and excessively used.  The use of a See Also section is cleaner and more flexable.  And if it's really important enough to have axes linked together, then axes should be important enough to have their own page describing axes, a page that can be linked to.--[[User:Gymnosophist|Gymnosophist]] 03:32, 9 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
::*I overlooked your comments until today. I agree that, much like categories, navigational templates can be overused. The axe one (Now I'll have to go back and make sure that I didn't create it! ;) is a good example, containing only two items. However, I find it useful to have related items linked together somehow. If I need some type of accordion, it is handy to be able to switch back and forth between them quickly. Or, when mushroom farming, it might be useful to quickly see the differences between the mushrooms.
 
::*I disagree with the assertion that anything worthy of a template would be better served by a distinct page. If we assume that a group of items that have some distinct property in common, such as staves, ought to be recognized as part of a group, but don't necessarily require additional information or commentary, a template is, IMO, the best way to go about recognizing that grouping. However, in some cases, such as [[Rare Items#Custom Items|custom items]], a new page is far better than a navigational template, mostly due to the additional information (both useful and merely interesting) that should be included in such a listing. --[[User:Snickles|Snickles]] 17:53, 15 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
:::*And I just got back from vacation last night, so there wasn't any rush in responding.  You're right that it can be useful to have some sort of linkage between related items, but from my perspective, "related" is a relative thing.  When the degree of "relatedness" is weak, and especially when the meaningfulness of the relationship is weak, then I would argue that a template should not be used.  I think that this is clearly the case with the [[Template:Clubs|Clubs]], [[Template:Axe|Axes]], [[Template:Saucepan|Saucepans]] and [[Template:Umbrella|Umbrellas]] templates, and marginally less so with the [[Template:Accordions|Accordions]] template.  There is simply no benefit to linking these items.  You might as well have a template for masks or gloves or who-knows-what.  It's all just useless clutter.  Parenthetically, I would note that we don't always use the weapon type consistantly - the [[Rubber axe]] is included in the [[Template:Axe|Axes]] template even though it is not explicitly an ax, whereas there are some weapons (like the [[ridiculously huge sword]]) that are not included in what would seem to be their appropriate catagory/template.  This underscores just how meaningless these weapon subgroupings are.
 
::::*I'm going to go ahead and break up my response... Although it makes it look weird, it might be easier to follow. Despite my earlier defense, I'll concede that the weapon template groupings are pretty meaningless, as there is no relationship between the items EXCEPT that they happen to be of the same type.
 
:::*With mushrooms, there is clearly a stronger relationship, but I'm still not convinced that a template is the most helpful approach to adopt.  By clicking on another mushroom, you find out the information for that mushroom, but how much does that really help you?  It's much more likely that a link to the [[Mushroom Fields Strategy]] would be helpful (and if you're really interested, you can click through to other mushrooms from the strategy page).  Further, there are plenty of things that could be considered to have meaningful relationships but that are not currently linked (like fruit, scrolls, etc.), but it would be much more helpful to be pointed to a master scroll page where you can learn all about scrolls than it would be to browse individual scrolls and picking up information piecemeal.  Going back to the mushrooms, it's worth noting how [http://kol.thraeryn.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Whatlinkshere&target=Mushroom_Fields_Strategy inaccessible] the strategy page currently is.
 
::::*Well, for one thing, the mushroom strategy page is not a "master" mushroom page. If it were, and was more useful a navigational aid than the current template, I'd have no problem removing the template. Mushrooms have some sense of order to them (3 sets of 3, 3 mushrooms for each statistic, all can be turned into wine), whereas fruits are a varied group. Some can be used to make drinks, some are reagent potion ingredients, some can be used in foods. I don't see a reason to group them as a whole. Similarly with scrolls... There is no connection between the various scrolls.
 
:::*I don't think that I went so far as to catagorically say that anything worthy of a template would be better served by a distinct page, but I do think that it's often true.  On the staves example, I'm a little ambivalent, but I mostly feel that it's opening a Pandora's Box here.  If we transition staves from a catagory to a template, then why stop there?  Almost anything that's currently a catagory could be recast to a template: hermit items, cooking ingrediants, hats, effects, basics, etc.  It would amount to a  drastic restructuring of the entire Wiki (as well as being a stylistic abomination).  On the other hand, I'm not entirely thrilled with staves being a catagory.  It's better than being a template, but perhaps not as good as eliminating the Staves catagory, making a staves list that's a member of the Weapons catagory, and changing all the individual stave weapons to be in the Weapons catagory and also to add a See Also pointer to the staves list.  But then again, perhaps it's easier just to let sleeping staves lie.  --[[User:Gymnosophist|Gymnosophist]] 16:16, 18 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
::::*I might have overstated myself in my earlier edit; my apologies. The Pandora's Box analogy goes both ways; if we allow hermit items to be a category, why not axes, staves, characters who collect can lids, etc. I think that I feel the same way about categories as you do about navigational templates; for example, I can't, for the life of me, understand why we have a category for hermit items. The items should be recognized on their pages as hermity items, and linked to from the hermit's page. I don't understand the utility of such a category. Using a navigational template for hermit items would be similarly pointless.
 
::::*I think that my navigational template fanaticism is mostly derived from my hatred for inane categories. I'm also not a fan of the "See Also" method, for reasons that I am not fully aware of. Anyway, just to finish up: I won't be offended if you (or others) disregard the navigational templates; I'm under no misconception that I know the best way to get things done. --[[User:Snickles|Snickles]] 00:50, 19 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
:::*PS: Axe and accordion weapons were included in the appropriate weapons/ranged weapons catagory whereas the club, saucepan and umbrella weapons were not.  I've changed the club, saucepan and umbrella weapons so that they are in the weapons catagory.  --[[User:Gymnosophist|Gymnosophist]] 23:06, 18 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
==Category Talk==
*I'd been in the process of trying to formulate some broader thoughts on catagories and generalized structure, when the wave of new weapon types broke.  I guess we'll have to revisit the weapon types.  Still, it's certainly been a fruitful discussion so far and I'd like to continue and expand it.  Accordingly, I've added Metastructure to the title of this section to reflect the increased scope of the topic.
 
*On mushrooms, I think that you're right that the [[Mushroom Fields Strategy]] page isn't really a master mushroom page and that the template has value.  But I'd still like to somehow increase the accessability of the page.  You're also right on the fruit and scrolls.  They really don't deserve any special treatment - they were just hastily chosen examples.
 
*On Hermit Items, I wholeheartedly agree with you as to the pointlessness of the catagory (and other inane catagories as well).  I'd love to kill the catagory.  My only reservation is that I'm not sure what catagory the hermit items should then be put into.  I don't have any solutions at the moment, but I'm working towards an analysis of catagory usage which may be of help here.  But I'd love to hear your thoughts on the matter.  --[[User:Gymnosophist|Gymnosophist]] 15:33, 20 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
:*I think the hermit items should be in the [[:Category:NPC Buy]] category.  When I set up that category, it was with the intention of having all the items that could be purchased in one way or another together in one spot.  However, so much has changed lately, and I've done so little of it, that I don't know if it exists any more or not...  --[[User:Jinya|jin]] 22:06, 23 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
::*I don't think we need a category for just hermit items, because you can get the same effect by going to the [[The Hermitage]] page.--[[User:Atlantima|Atlantima]] 19:38, 7 Sep 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
:*Categories are proving to not be the most useful method of organizing data for a game. Some categories ([[:Category:Adventure|Adventures]], [[:Category:Player|Players]]) are basically useless, due to the huge number of entries. Others, such as [[:Category:Hermit Items|Hermit Items]] are basically useless, because, well, they serve no function beyond that of the [[The Hermitage|hermit]] himself. (unsigned)
 
::*I propose a sub-category in [[:Category:Adventure|Adventures]], the subcategory being all the "one-time-only" adventures such as [[Screwdriver, wider than a mile]] or [[Dodecahedrariffic!]]. What do you guys think?--[[User:Atlantima|Atlantima]] 08:03, 7 Sep 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
:*I'm leaning towards a strictly top-level category heirarchy, with additional categories being formed ONLY if there is a compelling reason. For instance, having a list of ranged weapons is useful, because they are functionally different. Would this be better accomplished by a category or by some other method? I don't know. With all of the other options available to us, I don't foresee categories being THE major method of wiki navigation. --[[User:Snickles|Snickles]] 18:27, 20 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
::*I again agree with you here.  I'll put on my thinking cap on this anon.  --[[User:Gymnosophist|Gymnosophist]] 07:38, 21 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
::*As it can be read in [http://forums.kingdomofloathing.com/viewtopic.php?t=37397 this forum post], HotStuff writes that the change to weapon classes "is preliminary work for the long-promised new Seal Clubber skill". I think we'll have to wait until that's out to know the real importance of each weapon class. --[[User:Pcentella|Pcentella]] 18:47, 20 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
:::*Ah, thanks for pointing that post out. I'm usually on top of HotStuff's posts, but not this time. --[[User:Snickles|Snickles]] 18:58, 20 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
:::*Just to get an idea of the shape of the the new weapon types, I've put together a breakdown of weapon subtypes.  There are 17 subtypes with 2 subtypes having ranged and nonranged members (club and slingshot).  Here's the subtype list along with the weapon count for each subtype:
::::*2  accordion (ranged)
::::*5  axe
::::*2  banjo (ranged)
::::*15 club (1 ranged)
::::*9 crossbow (ranged)
::::*1 evil
::::*5 knife
::::*4 polearm
::::*2 saucepan
::::*2 slingshot (1 ranged)
::::*5 spear
::::*15 staff
::::*25 sword
::::*2 umbrella
::::*9 utensil
::::*1 wand
::::*6 whip
::::--[[User:Gymnosophist|Gymnosophist]] 07:38, 21 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
:::*/me is baffled by how there is a ranged club and a slingshot which is not a ranged weapon. --[[User:JRSiebz|JRSiebz]] 22:23, 28 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
::::* That's the [[can of maces]] (which makes sense as a ranged club), and the [[Turtleslinger]] (which should be ranged according to logic, but isn't, because it's the epic weapon of [[Turtle Tamer]]s, and those don't usually like ranged weapons :-) ). --[[User:Pcentella|Pcentella]] 19:08, 31 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
*As the wiki progresses, I'm observing that categories are becoming more and more useless. I like to have them as a secondary means of navigation, and would certainly object if they were removed, but I feel that actual data shouldn't be on category pages, and people shouldn't be redirected or referred to category pages. That information should be readily obtainable in the main article namespace. Which is why I'e redirected [[hats]], [[shirts]], [[pants]], [[weapons]], and [[ranged weapons]] to their respective "sorted by power" pages rather than the category. The main namespace is better suited to navigation and data than the category namespace, and I think that this is becoming more and more clear as the wiki continues to improve. --<font color="blue">Aa</font><font color="green">rd</font><font color="yellow">va</font><font color="orange">rk</font> <small>([[User talk:Aardvark|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Aardvark|Contribs]])</small> 00:52, 2 Oct 2005 (MDT)
 
==Comprehensive Effect Tables==
*I've been slowly building up a series of articles that attempt to cover all the possible consequences of effects, skills, equipment, etc  (see forum [http://kol.thraeryn.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=236 discussion] for some additional background).  Each article lists all the possible ways that a particular "effect" (such as [[Combat Initiative]], [[MP Increasers]], [[Muscle Increasers]], etc.) can be attained.  So far I've done about three quarters of the "effects" and am pretty happy with the individual articles and the way that the sources link to them using a See Also section.  Ultimately, I'd like to be able to get rid of such catagories such [[:Category:Muscle Increasers]].  Also to be eliminated would be all the [[Accessories by effect]] articles.  There are a couple of things I'd particularly like to get some feedback on:
:*The top level organization is pretty horrible.  The [[:Category:Effects of Effects]] was just a initial organizing tool, but it needs to be improved.  At a minimum, some sort of name change and/or better introductory text is in order.  I'd also like to increase accessability to the top level (and maybe also to some of the individual articles).
:*Even though [[Jinya]] has, in a general sort of way, bought off on the approach, it has felt like  something of a stealth project.  I'd like to again invite feedback and see if anyone has any comments or concerns.
:*I'd like to add a feature that, for each "effect", details what gear/buffs/familiars, etc. will give you the maximum possible gain for that "effect" (for example, maximum possible [[Meat from Monsters]].  I'm not sure if I should try to shoehorn this into the existing articles or make these as separate pages.  I'd also like to do several different variants of these - a supermaximum version that includes custom items and mafia prize items, along with one (or more) more achievable variants.  --[[User:Gymnosophist|Gymnosophist]] 15:33, 20 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
::*I like this idea. I think good variants to include would be the theoretical maximum, using customs, etc., the achievable maximum, using all available items, and some type of "common" maximum, which would have some sort of guidelines; not including FOTMs, for instance. Retrospectively, there might be too little difference between these, depending on what variable we are accounting for; perhaps two high end variants will suffice. --[[User:Snickles|Snickles]] 14:56, 22 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
==Site Map==
*I'd like to explore the possible implementation of some sort of site map or master table of contents.  There's a lot of rich content here, some of which is featured on the front page, but other content can be more difficult to find. Some implementations of a site map/TOC should improve general accessability as well as obviating the need for various catagories.  I don't have any specific ideas at this point, but I thought it was worth bringing up.  --[[User:Gymnosophist|Gymnosophist]] 15:33, 20 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
:*I spent about half an hour typing up various proposals, and they all were lacking. A site map is a good start, but I think we need more ways to integrate that framework into the wiki pages, and I haven't been able to come up with a good way to do that. --[[User:Snickles|Snickles]] 18:55, 20 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
 
We are in DEFINITE need of a front page overhaul.  I had intentions of working on this a week or so ago, but it's been a busy month for me.  Any suggestions are QUITE welcome, even if they're lacking in portions.  As a team, maybe we can come up with something that'll work for everyone.  However, this discussion page is INSANE in its proportions lately, so I'd suggest any lengthy issues be taken up on the forums.  --[[User:Jinya|jin]] 22:08, 23 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
==Example: Mushrooms==
<table CELLPADDING=3 CELLSPACING=5 style="background-color: #EEEEEE; border: solid 1px #0000FF" ALIGN=center>
<tr><td ALIGN=center>Mushrooms</td></TR>
<TR><TD>[[cool mushroom|cool]] | [[flaming mushroom|flaming]] | [[frozen mushroom|frozen]] | [[knob mushroom|knob]] | [[knoll mushroom|knoll]] | [[pointy mushroom|pointy]] | [[spooky mushroom|spooky]] | [[stinky mushroom|stinky]] |[[warm mushroom|warm]]</td></tr></table>
 
=Table of Contents=
A number of small pages are beginning to show up with tables of contents. I think this is an unneeded use of space in cases where the page fits entirely within one or two screens. You can use the command <nowiki>__NOTOC__</nowiki> to prevent the automatic TOC from being created (Which happens after a page has 4 headings). --[[User:Snickles|Snickles]] 16:40, 24 Jun 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
=Proposed monster battle layout=
I'd like to see a better layout for monster battles. Some of them just don't seem to make sense. As I've pointed out elsewhere, I don't really see the point of adding "You hit for ''x'' damage, or "You win the fight!", as this text is the same across the board. And the hit/miss text is hard to distinguish at times. I propose laying out pages as in example 1, below. Note the self-link in the header, and the use of color (red) in the hit text. --[[User:Aardvark|Aardvark]] 22:40, 30 Jun 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
:*What do you think of putting a larger space between the basic sections, like in [[irate mariachi]]?  I like it because it's easier to read and find information in if everything doesn't run together. 
::*I like that idea, myself. It has a better layout. --[[User:Aardvark|Aardvark]] 01:12, 4 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
:What would the self-link do?  Wouldn't it just refresh the page you're already viewing?
--[[User:Flyingcamel|Flyingcamel]] 02:26, 3 July 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
:*Self-links are bolded -- [[Proposed Standards]]. --[[User:Snickles|Snickles]] 22:25, 3 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
Suggestion:  What about using generic terms to replace randomly-generated text?  For example: "It pokes you in the <part>" or "You gain 4 <substat>." -- [[User:Baltar|Baltar]] 21:39, 3 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
*I agree with this. And, you know, with what Aardvark says above. Having damage, stat messages, body parts... Fluff. And bad fluff, at that. --[[User:Snickles|Snickles]] 22:25, 3 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
:*I'm of the opinion that stat and meat gains should show a range, rather than a fixed number. Either that, or they simply shouldn't be there. As for other randomly generated text, such as body parts in attacks messages- "It hit's you in the solar plexus/skull/bung/foot/".... yeah. I'm with you on simply using <part>, or deciding on one word or phrase to use across the board. --[[User:Aardvark|Aardvark]] 01:12, 4 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
*I did a minor tweak - group all hit messages above the miss messages with a space in-between.  Otherwise, I like what's been done here.  I thank that meat and stats should definitely be shown and that they should be shown as ranges.  It could be a bit of work to find the values, but it's as spoileriffic as possible - and that's what this site is all about, right?  :)  --[[User:Gymnosophist|Gymnosophist]] 02:54, 4 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
:*I like! And I do agree with you on the stats and meat thing. Data gathering like that can be a pain in the ass, however. It would be made much easier if we used the talk pages (or another resource) to share the specific data, as in my work on [[Talk:Knob Goblin Mad Scientist]] (which needs work, I know). Specific factors such as familiar used, class, intrinsics, zodiac signs, and level should also be mention in any such data gathering. --[[User:Aardvark|Aardvark]] 06:50, 4 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
::*Using the talk pages is perfect. I'm not sure that we need to keep track of specific muscle/mysticality/moxie gains,  as they will be the same, just adjusted for class. A total would be better, IMO. On the other hand, if we do track them individually, I'd suggest a table so that information from  a  single run can be found in one place, and total stat points are easily calculated. Finally, I'm of  the opinio that items drops should be tracked somehow. This might be too  big of a job for manual recording, but there was a script hanging around that recorded drops - anyone know if we could use that information? And post-finally, I don't know how helpful the clockwork detective  skull is, but I think the HP range given by the regular skull should be recorded, along with information about the relative strength of an encouter. It's a lot of data gathering, but with so many people working on it, maybe something useful will come. PPF, Aardvark's comment about noting class, signs, level, buffs, ETC, is DEAD ON. PAY ATTENTION if you plan on recording information that can be affected by such things. --[[User:Snickles|Snickles]] 09:36, 4 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
::*Also, guys... Fricking great work. Virtually every day some aspect of the wiki has improved dramatically. Very impressive. --[[User:Snickles|Snickles]] 09:36, 4 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
:*I like the adventure format in Example 1 very much, too. We never did settle on a notation for the generic body parts, though; I notice the example still says "it pokes you in the ankle." I saw one page today where somebody used $part and $substats, which I think would be confusing to most people. Baltar suggested <part> and <substats>, which I like better, but I think the angle brackets might make some people think they were HTML tags. How about [part] and [substats]? -- [[User:Old Ned|Old Ned]] 03:49, 13 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
::*I don't have an opinion on the display of body parts  :~), but with regard to the substat data, I think we should show "You gain x (or x-y) <nowiki>[[substat]]</nowiki> points" and link to a substat page that we need to create.  We've long overdue for a substat/experience page that defines and explains substats.  I was searching the Wiki for substat coverage and really couldn't find much.  Words like smarm don't seem to be defined anywhere.  I might have missed it, but I couldn't even find the fact that the distribution of substat gains from combat is governed by your Class type.  The [[Stat]] and [[Advancement]] pages don't really cover this very well.  --[[User:Gymnosophist|Gymnosophist]] 09:03, 13 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
 
 
*Header = template, for simplicity and easier standardization. The template uses the following format:
<nowiki>{{battletop|image=image.gif|a=article (a/an/the)|name=monster name|text=battle text}}</nowiki>
Please note that this template does not include variables for hit/miss text, or meat and item drops. For simplicity, I feel that these should be added either in a seperate template, or in the page body. --[[User:Aardvark|Aardvark]] 07:17, 4 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
:*The template doesn't seem to handle 'a/an' correctly for monster names that start with a vowel.  Can it?  Or should 'a' be taken out of the template altogether and we'll just remember to include 'a/an' as part of the name? -- [[User:Baltar|Baltar]] 16:42, 4 Jul 2005 (Central
Daylight Time)
::*I'll have to take that part out of the template completely, and switch the self link to regular bolding. Good catch. --[[User:Aardvark|Aardvark]] 18:12, 4 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
::*Actually, that doesn't really look good, appearance-wise. We'll either have to a)add an extra variable (effective, but mildly irratating). b)Use a secondary template (simple, but rather pointless), or c) live with the occasional grammatical inconsistency (not ideal). I'm opting for a), myself. --[[User:Aardvark|Aardvark]] 18:20, 4 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
::*Variable added. See above --[[User:Aardvark|Aardvark]] 18:24, 4 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
:*For no readily apparent reason, the Boss monsters in the Defiled Cyrpt have the words "(one time)" as part of their page names -- for example, [[huge ghuol (one time)]].  This plays havoc with the template:  the self-link doesn't work, because the name of the monster doesn't match the name of the page.  See [[giant skeelton (one time)|giant skeelton]] for an example.  Personally, I'd say leave the template alone and fix the page names, but it's up to you. -- [[User:Baltar|Baltar]] 02:36, 7 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
::*You've got a good point. The self link isn't entirely necessary, though. I'll just '''bold'''. --[[User:Aardvark|Aardvark]] 02:40, 7 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
:::*Why don't we just rename the articles (rename "giant skeelton (one time)" to "giant skeelton")?  --[[User:Gymnosophist|Gymnosophist]] 02:56, 7 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
::::*We could, but the (one time) information is really handy to have displayed on the locations page, and the current template won't allow you to add that information in manually. In either case, the problem has been fixed. Self-linking and bolding do the same thing, so I just switched to regular bolding. None of the pages using the template already are affected in any negative way, and it does neatly solve the (one time) problem. --[[User:Aardvark|Aardvark]] 06:09, 7 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
==Example 1==
{{battletop|image=mariachi3.gif|a=a|name=mariachi calavera|text=This frightening apparition is a malevolently animated skeleton wearing a mariachi suit. Even though it's a skeleton, it somehow has a gigantic beer belly. You probably shouldn't have eaten the worm at the bottom of the mescal.}}
<center>It pokes you in the ankle with one skeletal finger. <span style="color:#FF0000">'''Ugh! Oof!'''</span>
 
It plays a skeletal tune on its skeletal guitar. You feel chills running up and down your knee. <span style="color:#FF0000">'''Eek! Argh!'''</span>
 
 
It tries to poke you with its skeletal fingers, but you break one off and find it's made of tasty marzipan.
 
It plays a skeletal tune on its skeletal guitar. You tell it that it's suit has a touch of grey in it, but it kind of suits it anyway.
 
 
[[image:bottle.gif]]You acquire an item: <b>[[bottle of tequila]]</b><br />
[[image:candyskull.gif]]You acquire an item: <b>[[marzipan skull]]</b><br />
 
You gain 4 Strongness.</center>
 
----
 
Found [[South of the Border]].
 
----
 
 
==Aquiring Items==
*I'd like some input on [[Template talk:Acquire]], which could be used on adventure/monster/use items to template the 'You acquire an item:'/'You acquire some items:' lines. --[[User:JRSiebz|JRSiebz]] 15:34, 12 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
 
==Battle/Adventure Variables==
*Just an FYI, a list of the body parts that can get hit is currently at [[Anatomical Injuries]].
:*That's a good page. I guess a list of body parts while using a [[Clockwork Grapefruit]] would be nice too. --[[User:Pcentella|Pcentella]] 19:52, 30 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
*Currently it seems that to express a random body part that gets hit in a successful attack message, I have seen $part or $bodypart used. For example: "It hits you in the $part."  I know how this arose, from variables in php and some other scripting languages leading with dollar signs, but for the ''average'' person, it may just seem strange and ugly.  I prefer elcosing in < and > for variable items, such as "It hits you in the <body part>."  To me, it just seems cleaner and a little more intuitive.  It could even be <[[Anatomical Injuries|body part]]>, that way if someone wasn't sure what it was, the list of possible body parts would make it obvious.  The other spot I notice this is for stat gains, specifically $substat.  Maybe something like <total stat gain> or something a little more obvious may be better suited, but eh, someone else probably has a better idea ;-).  Thoughts anyone?--[[User:JRSiebz|JRSiebz]] 19:33, 30 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
:*I like this. I think a template called "body part", or preferably "part" (for shorter typying for us lazy people) that wrote exactly <[[Anatomical Injuries|body part]]> would be cool too (that way we keep the wiki consistant, and we can easily change how that is displayed easily). --[[User:Pcentella|Pcentella]] 19:52, 30 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
::*Template created. Instead of part$, you can use <nowiki>{{part}}</nowiki>. Much more intuitive. --<font color="blue">Aa</font><font color="green">rd</font><font color="yellow">va</font><font color="orange">rk</font> <small>([[User talk:Aardvark|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Aardvark|Contribs]])</small> 05:24, 30 Sep 2005 (MDT)
::*I still don't have a strong opinion on the display of body parts.  :~)  However, on the $substat gain, I'll reiterate what I said back on the 13th [[Talk:Proposed Standards#Proposed monster battle layout|(above)]]:  I think we should show "You gain x (or x-y) [[substat]] points" and link to a substat page that we need to create. We've long overdue for a substat/experience page that defines and explains substats. I was searching the Wiki for substat coverage and really couldn't find much. Words like smarm don't seem to be defined anywhere. I might have missed it, but I couldn't even find the fact that the distribution of substat gains from combat is governed by your Class type. The Stat and Advancement pages don't really cover this very well.  --[[User:Gymnosophist|Gymnosophist]] 20:48, 30 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
=Cultural References=
*I think we are in need some standards set for adding Cultural References to items, adventures, monsters, etc.  First we need to settle on a section name, whether it being "Cultural References", "Cultural Reference", "References", "Reference", or something else.  I have been trying to be consistent in the ones I have been adding.  I have been linking artists/actors/writers/movies/shows/games to [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ wikipedia], albums to [http://freedb.org/ freedb.org] (free version of the [http://www.cddb.org cddb](CD Database)), and if wikipedia hasn't been sufficient, linking to [http://www.imdb.com/ imdb] (Internet Movie Database).  I have been putting quotes & lyrics in quotes, and albums/songs/movies/video games/books in double single quotes (wiki for italics). I've noticed some people just chucking them under Notes:. I have been more or less using the following format(s), or variations of:
==References==
* The (name/decription) of this (item/monster/adventure) (refers to/alludes to/references) the (year of movie) ([http://en.wikipedia/ACTORNAME ACTOR] if relevant to reference, or maybe an adj. like cult classic, blockbuster,action, etc.) (film/movie), [http://en.wikipedia/MOVIENAME ''MOVIENAME''], (in which/where) REFERENCE.
*The (name/decription) of this (item/monster/adventure) (refers to/alludes to/references) the (year of album) [http://freedb.org/ALBUMLOCATION ''ALBUM''] released by the (band/artist) [http://en.wikipedia/ARTISTNAME ARTISTNAME], (in which/where) REFERENCE.
*The (name/decription) of this (item/monster/adventure) (refers to/alludes to/references) a lyric from the song ''SONGNAME'', (performed by/sung by/by) [http://en.wikipedia/ARTISTNAME ARTISTNAME], "LYRIC (using  /  to separate lines)".
*The (name/decription) of this (item/monster/adventure) (refers to/alludes to/references) the (year of game release) [http://en.wikipedia/GAMESYSTEM GAMESYSTEM] game, [http://en.wikipedia/GAMENAME ''GAMENAME''],(in which/where) REFERENCE.
 
-But if anyone important has any better ideas, that's ok too ;-)
--[[User:JRSiebz|JRSiebz]] 09:00, 5 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
 
:*The '''References''' section is good for me.  I think in the past it was clumped in as notes because we hadn't standardized it.  Go with References.  And I like how you're linking to things outside of the wiki to let people hunt up the movie/music/game, etc....  --[[User:Jinya|jin]] 09:14, 5 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
:*n00b opinion, and as one who has chucked a reference under notes please disregard at your leisure. Both above points are good, my only thought being that less standardization within the descriptions (i.e. the last four points above] might be more in keeping with the idiosyncratic nature of the references themselves. People who have an intimate knowledge of what is being referred to may well describe it in a more interesting - colorful? - manner than just rattling off the specifics. Which would be more fun to read. Or something.
 
:*I more or less listed those as syntactical examples, like how to format, where to link, not expecting to always have the exact same wording.  I don't use the exact same wording for variety purposes, and depending on the kind of reference. Variation along the same lines would of course be fine.  I was just giving a few examples of what I have used before, so people have a few examples to work from. If all references were worded exactly like that it would be kinda dull and robotic. (oh and timestamp/sign your "talks", it's the second last button on the edit toolbar) --[[User:JRSiebz|JRSiebz]] 22:02, 5 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
:*I agree with most of your formatting suggestions for various references. Note, though, that the usual typographical practice is to use italics (with no quotation marks) for the names of longer works like books, movies, or albums, and to use quotation marks (with no italics) for the names of shorter works like short stories, essays, or songs. I mention this because your example had a song title in italics. -- [[User:Old Ned|Old Ned]] 06:00, 13 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
::*Wikipedia uses italics for songs, and they're the wiki of all wikis ;-) It's my opinion that since quotes and lyrics are in quotations marks, it's nice to have the song title stand out differently. Citing things is odd on the web though, like IRL you underline books, but on the web, links are usually underlined, so you italicize books. Eh, as long as we're consistent. --[[User:JRSiebz|JRSiebz]] 12:16, 13 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
:::*If by Real Life you mean handwritten documents or school papers, then yes, but Real Typography (what you see in books and magazines) does not use underlines for book titles, only italics. Yeah, you're right; as long as we're consistent, it doesn't matter so much whether we use exactly the same conventions as print, especially since we are a somewhat different medium. I didn't realize Wikipedia used italics for song titles, and I'm sure they had *lengthy* discussions about exactly how to do them, so... I guess we might as well be consistent with them. -- [[User:Old Ned|Old Ned]] 06:01, 14 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
*A reminder - the addition of a reference section can cause the page to have 4 headings which in turn adds an unnecessary table of contents.  If this happens, please add the command <nowiki>__NOTOC__</nowiki> to the bottom of the page to surpress the TOC.  --[[User:Gymnosophist|Gymnosophist]] 11:12, 7 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
*Also I have realized that there is no need to link to wikipedia using the web link sytax <nowiki>[http://en.wikipedia/SOMETHING_OR_OTHER  SOMETHING OR OTHER]</nowiki>, you can use internal wiki shortcut syntax <nowiki>[[Wikipedia:SOMETHING OR OTHER|SOMETHING OR OTHER]]</nowiki>, so w00t! --[[User:JRSiebz|JRSiebz]] 21:40, 17 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
=Skills=
We badly need to finalize standards on Skills. [[epeterso2]] has made an excellent [http://kol.thraeryn.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=259 Start]to this, but the furum discussion seems to have petered out :) without resolution.  The disambiguation issue need to be resolved as well.  --[[User:Gymnosophist|Gymnosophist]] 02:06, 9 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
==Effects & Skills with the Same Name==
*Some [[effects]] have the same name as the [[skill]] they are obtained from, such as [[Springy Fusilli]], [[Leash_of_Linguini]], etc.  I've noticed some effect pages categorized as skills, and skill pages as effects because of this.  I created a [[Template:Disambig|disambiguation template]] like the one wikipedia has.  I have only tried it so far with [[Leash of Linguini]]. Comments welcome... and greatly appreciated. The skill [[Leash of Linguini (skill)|Leash of Linguini]] uses the [[Template:Skill|skill template]] and the effect [[Leash of Linguini (effect)|Leash of Linguini]] uses the [[Template:Effect|effect template]].--[[User:JRSiebz|JRSiebz]] 16:14, 15 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
::* I see that you're adopting the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury Mercury] approach instaid of the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rome Rome] approach that I suggested in my forum [http://kol.thraeryn.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=259&start=12 post].  I again suggest that the Rome approach be used.  Actually, I think that entirely dispensing with a disambiguation page is the way to go.  Take the user directly to the skill page ("Leash of Linguini".  If they are interested in the effect page, then they can click through from the skill page to the effect page ("Leash of Linguini (effect)").  This shouldn't be needed very often as the skill page usually contains all of the information that's contained in the effect page.  This way a user will usually get the information they want in one click instead of never getting there in one click.  --[[User:Gymnosophist|Gymnosophist]] 16:52, 18 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
::*I used the [[Wikipedia:Mercury|Mercury]] approach because there is about a 50-50 chance someone would rather see the effect or the skill page, like when people look up Mercury your not sure if they want the planet or the substance. The [[Wikipedia:Rome|Rome]] approach assumes that almost all of the time, Rome the Italian city is the desired page, then links to the disambiguation page for obscure Romes, like Rome, Ohio, etc.  Oh and I'm going to remove the rewrite from the template because then it's in the tempalte and butchers about 20 pages, so I'll move your comments to it's talk page.--[[User:JRSiebz|JRSiebz]] 19:13, 21 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
:::*I'm not sure if you're completely following me on the advantages of the modified Rome approach.  It's easier to set up and reduces clutter, but most importantly, it gives a better user experience.  I would guess that perhaps 90% of the time the user will get all the information they need if they are sent directly to skill page with it's robust information.  Only rarely would a user need to click through to the effect page from the skill page.
 
:::*In any event, let's arrive at a consensus before proceding further with disambiguation work.  I would actually like to delete all the existing disambiguation pages along with the template and category.  --[[User:Gymnosophist|Gymnosophist]] 19:31, 21 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
:::* Actually I already think I have em all, I think the count is 21, I've been through all the classes, I'm still going to go through and make all the effect and skill pages though, so at least the info is there and using the templates, we can always move it later if we have to.  There are still a bunch of uncreated or untemplated effects and skill pages though, except for [[Pastamancer]]s, because I did those first. I thought there'd be more, but many of the skills weren't named as they are in the game, but as their effect.  But technically speaking, many skills don't really do anything but allow you to cast an effect.  It's the effect which actually does something, not the skill.--[[User:JRSiebz|JRSiebz]] 19:41, 21 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
::::*I seem to be doing a poor job of explaining myself.  What I envision is the following:
:::::*A user searches for "Leash of Linguini" and is directed to the skill page "Leash of Linguini".
:::::*The "Leash of Linguini" skill page contains comprehensive skill information including explicit effect information.  This makes the skill page a "one-stop" information destination.  You shouldn't have to click through to an effect page in order to figure out just what the heck does this skill do. 
:::::*The "Leash of Linguini (effect)" effect page has the explicit effect information but does not have the comprehensive skill information.
:::::*The skill and effect pages are crosslinked.
::::*This approach, to me, is simple, elegent, and user friendly.  The fact that the effect rather than the skill is "doing the work" is pretty much besides the point - what we are trying to accomplish is provide information in a useful and efficient manner.
 
:::*As long as we have name the pages consistently, and have pages for the separate skill and effect descriptions. Well at least we know what pages need attention... the 21 in the disambig category, well whatever we decide on, we can leave em in that category until they are completed, it'd just be a very specific needs work category ;-) I'd hate to try to hunt these buggers down all over again.  The only ambiguous item that I found not to be an effect/skill is the barrrnacle, even though it's only ambiguous b/c all wiki pages get their first letter capitalized. --[[User:JRSiebz|JRSiebz]] 21:54, 21 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
*It seems that we're still lacking concensus here.  [[Jinya]], [[User: Snickles|Snickles]], [[User:Yiab|Yiab]], [[Aardvark]], or anyone else care to weigh in on this? 
:*There's actually another whole class of stuff (many of the campground items: meat golem, cottage, etc.) that may need to go through the disambiguation process, and I hope to get this resolved before before work commences on these items.  --[[User:Gymnosophist|Gymnosophist]] 12:50, 22 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
 
 
 
:*I've added some disussion about the [[Template:Effect|effect template]] and the [[Template:Skill|skill template]], they both seem uncomplete and highly unused. --[[User:JRSiebz|JRSiebz]] 16:24, 15 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
:*It's not terribly important to me either way. The "Rome" method seems more appropriate for instances involving two "ambiguous" pages, whereas "Mercury" would be more useful if three or more pages are involved. Since I doubt we'll have many instances involving 3+ pages requiring disambiguation, my vote goes to "Rome." --[[User:Snickles|Snickles]] 14:47, 22 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
 
What about one page named [[Leash of Linguini]] and have a <nowiki>==Skill== and ==Effect==</nowiki> section on it?  --[[User:Jinya|jin]] 21:53, 23 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
*We could use a single-page approach, but it would go against the grain of much of what's gone before.  There's been a lot of work invested in achieving a standardized look and feel and it would be a shame to unnecessarily depart from the standards here.  I'd consider a one-page approach as a third best alternative.
 
:*I was actually looking achieve concensus on one or another of two alternatives, not have a third alternative introduced!  :)  What do we need to do now to settle on a single approach?  --[[User:Gymnosophist|Gymnosophist]] 01:03, 25 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
:*I guess pick your favorite skill/effect combo, format it how you see fit, and then we'll all look at the different approaches... and if that doesn't work, we can all pick a chicken and have a fight to the death in the arena ;-)  Actually if all pages had their links updated, the only time someone whould be directed to the disambig pages is if they searched for that skill/effect.  I just did it the way i did to get the skills and effects filled in and templated, sure I like it because I made it, but I'm not married to it ;-).--[[User:JRSiebz|JRSiebz]] 01:17, 25 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
::*Mmm, yes I'm well aware of the fact that you did it.  I just wish you had heeded my various requests for discussion before you decided on and implemented an approach by fiat.  I choose my Pickle!!  :)  --[[User:Gymnosophist|Gymnosophist]] 07:48, 25 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
 
=Campground Items=
Now that the split item/location approach has been implemented, I'd like finish up by deleting the [[:Category:Campground Items]].  This category is no longer needed as [[The Campground]] page does a much better job of organizing and presenting Campground data.  Additionally, [[The Campground]] page is now highly accessible, as it is linked to by every Campground Item and every Campground Location, as well as being a member of [[:Category:Basics]].  --[[User:Gymnosophist|Gymnosophist]] 14:54, 1 Sep 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
=Stat requirement texts for areas=
 
Obviously it'd be a good idea to start adding stat requirements to location pages; is it worthwhile to include the messages given when one's stats are insufficient, too? --[[User:Araltaln|Araltaln]] 17:10, 14 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
*I think those messages are worthwhile to include, some of them are quite funny. --[[User:Pcentella|Pcentella]] 07:31, 15 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
=Standards for Player/Clan Pages=
 
I've noticed that there are a lot of player pages that are a whole one line + category.  It seems like some people are pretty much adding their whole clans.  I have no problem with wiki editors creating their player pages and clan pages, or adding pages for well-known clans or players (though that is quite subjective), but adding a whole bunch of player or clan pages just for the hell of it seems quite unwanted.  If a player wants a page here, they can do it themselves and put some time into it making it nice and useful. Adding all your friends just to clutter up the wiki and make your clan seem important seems detremental to the wiki, a clan can get their own web page if they want to do that.  I can come up with a list of at least 20+ useless player pages if anyone really needs proof.  I think some standard/regulations/poilicy is needed for adding player/clan pages. Thoughts anyone?--[[User:JRSiebz|JRSiebz]] 14:43, 16 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
*I basically agree, but it's not something that gives me conniptions.  I  suppose a stipulation that you should't set up pages for other people would make sense.  (And, yes, we probably should clean up those pages that were referenced in the Pages to Delete page).  --[[User:Gymnosophist|Gymnosophist]] 22:01, 23 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
What do folks think of a separate Notable Clans category, for clans that are in fact worth reading about? Yeah, it's subjective but there are a whole lot of little "WE ARE SMALL BUT GOOD!" articles that don't amount to much more than Graffiti Wall advertising. [[User:KRadix|KRadix]] 10:10, 11 Sep 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
:I'm all for actually trashing the "WE ARE SMALL BUT GOOD!" articles. "Notable", of course, would need to be defined, but it shouldn't be too hard, though.
:#Does the clan have members that could be considered notable or well-known? A notable member might be a moderator, admin, ass-tension tester, Radio DJ, or a player who has made a significant impact on the community. If your clan is just you, your multies, and a few schoolmates, it's probably not notable.
:#Has the clan done anything that could be considered notable? Have the done any major announced giveaways of a massive scale? (Aflafadub! Noblesse Oblige, and Otori come to mind)
:#Does the clan have a particularly impressive war record?
:#Does the clan have a particularly impressive history, or has it been around for more than a year?
:#Does the clan have another significant claim to fame, such as population or records?
:If none of the above apply, I don't think the article even BELONGS here. But that's just me, of course. --[[User:Aardvark|Aardvark]] 10:31, 11 Sep 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
*I agree that crappy clan pages shouldn't be here.  Hell, I whine about the zillions of one liner player pages all the time.  But I also think that wiki editors should be alowed to create clan pages for themselves, even if they are in insignificant clans, assuming of course put the time into it neccessary to make it' not crappy' and that they did not just register on the wiki to create their clan pages and player pages for them and their friends without contributing any useful content to the wiki.  I have no problems wirh wiki contributers create player/clan pages, but adding a bunch of unknown players' one line player pages just because you created a clan roster with wiki links to all their names, seems well , stupid.  I'd love to to though the player category and delete all 1 or 2 line player pages that do not have a wiki user page associated with them.  You can tell if someone puts any time whatsoever into a player or clan page, then yeah, I have no problem with it.  I think we need player page rules too, like the clan ones mentioned above.  People be able to only add themselves and "Notable" people, not everyone in their un-"Notable" clan, I think the same for clans, And by people I mean useful wiki contributers. Also I hate "pastes" of the in-game profile for a player page, if I wanted to see all your familiars or your display case, I'd look you up in-game. &lt;/rant&gt; I just think the wiki has a theat of becoming a free make your clan website or player profile site.  I like these pages as being a summary, and then links for more information, like to a clan page or a personal site, not the wiki being the clan page or a recruiting page full a "spam" --[[User:JRSiebz|JRSiebz]] 03:50, 13 Sep 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
*I agree with that summary, as well - particulary if the editor has put some time and thought into it. On the other hand, if an editor's SOLE contribution is the creation of a clan and/or use profile page (assuming, of course, they don't fit the standard of notability), I think those pages should be deleted as useless clutter. --[[User:Aardvark|Aardvark]] 06:46, 13 Sep 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
:*We prob should copy this to [[Talk:Proposed Standards]] to see what other people think, I think I'll just expand and rename the current section I started by ranting on useless and insignificant player pages.  I just hate  useless clutter ;-) --[[User:JRSiebz|JRSiebz]] 20:26, 13 Sep 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
:*Could someone make a template clan webpage or something else to set the standard so its uniform across the wiki?--[[User:LiquidPhire|LiquidPhire]] 20:41, 13 Sep 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
::* Unlike other types of pages, I don't think there should be an "offical template" for clan or player pages.  That would just encourage an increased number of clan pages just doing the "bare minimum" by just adding the template.  People should put time and effort into his/her player and clan pages.  This wiki isn't meant to act as your clan webpage, but just to provide kol info on major clans/players and player/clan information on the contributing editors.  You can sum up the uniqueness of your clan and then include links for more information, like to a real clan website or something;  many clans have their own webpages, message boards, and histories which could all be linked to.  Registering at this wiki just to create player and clan pages is against the whole spirit of this wiki...  but that's just in my not-so-humble opinion. If you want a clan web page where you can do everything and anyhting you want, there are many free [http://members.freewebs.com/ web hosts] and many free [http://invisionfree.com/ forums] out there for that ;-)  And it seems like we may be on the verge of clearing out all one-lined insignificant player/clan pages. --[[User:JRSiebz|JRSiebz]] 20:57, 13 Sep 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
=Wiki Style=
On a few edits I've made recently, I've made a stab at incorporating a touch of humor and/or some whimsical links.  It feels like a very KoLish thing to do, but I'm sure that at some point someone will be unamused when they find amusment at their spoiler site.  Also, it goes without saying that people's tastes vary - what one person might find deliciously ironic, another will just see as stupid, and yet another person will find ham-handed.  Further, it's something of a departure from the meat-and-potatoes consistant look and feel of the Wiki.  Finally, I didn't want to open the door to, like, knock-knock jokes or traveling salesman jokes.  So, I wanted to get some feedback on this.  Here are my hopefully-not-entirely-lame efforts:
*[[The "Fun" House]]
*[[Maximizing Your Muscle]]
*[[Maximizing Your Mysticality]]
*[[Maximizing Your Moxie]]
--[[User:Gymnosophist|Gymnosophist]] 22:49, 23 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
=Spoiler Space=
 
It seems to me that adding spoiler tags will create unnecessary work.  Aside from the fact that the whole of this site should be considered as a spoiler, as the newer content becomes old news people will need to edit out the spoiler tags in order to keep the site from reading:
 
{{Spoiler|SpoilerText=Spoiler spoiler spoiler!!!}}
 
The people who frequent this site do-so under the assumption that it's spoileriffic.  This is a place where people go for clear, honest, and quick answers.  Adding spoiler tags detracts from that purpose --[[User:Piisexactly3|Piisexactly3]] 18:08, 16 Sep 2005 (Pacific Daylight Time)
 
*About spoilering in general... I think some people might like a resource for things that are not so spoilerific.  Those "some people" also include people who don't come to this site so as not to be spoiled.  I happened to run across [http://uqm.stack.nl/wiki/Main_Page another wiki page] recently for the Ur-Quan Masters, a Star Control 2 project on sourceforge.  If you take a look at that wiki you'll notice they have a special way to designate non-spoiler pages from spoilerific pages.  I can see things like the [[Jick_and_Mr._Skullhead_Radio_Show_FAQ]] being in a non-spoiler section, and perhaps any other pages with basic information. --[[User:Fryguy9|Fryguy9]] 20:33, 21 Sep 2005 (MDT)
 
=Featured Articles, KoL History Dates, and Custom Namspaces=
*On [[Special:Templates]], the DATE and FEATURE "templates" are starting to make it hard to navigate though the available templates.  And there will be evenutally 366 DATE "templates"!!!!  I've been looking at other wikis, and for items similar to these, these use a custom namespace.  In the talk page of [[Featured Articles]], it is mentioned that it'd be nice to have the featured articles all together in a category, but then all pages using them (the main page) wouod be added to that category... a custom name space woudl fix that.  Meaning instead of Template:FEATURE <name>, we'd use Feature:<name>, and instead of Template:DATE <month> <day>, we'd use something like Date:<month> <day> or History: <month> <day>.  Info on creating custom namespaces, which is quite easy, is [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Custom_namespaces here].  Then you could see all the pages in a particular namespace by going to [[Special:Allpages]] and selecting the desired namespace. This would take a some effort to move all the features articles and dates, but I think it would be much more organized and cleaner in the long run, especially for [[Special:Templates]].  I think then custom special pages named Special:Features and Special:Dates / Special:History could also be created like [Special:Templates]] was, so that you need not even go to [[Special:Allpages]].  Also browsing around, I think there may be away to (randomly?) select a/an article(s) from within namespace, at least maybe in the lastest version of visual wiki.  Any thoughts? --[[User:JRSiebz|JRSiebz]] 22:51, 23 Sep 2005 (MDT)
:*The templates COULD feasibly be made subpages of other pages, which would clean up [[Special:Templates]] quite nicely. Featured articles could be moved to [[Featured Articles/ARTICLENAME]] and today in history could be moved to [[Today in History/DATE]].
::There would be a few minor issues with this, of course. First of all, they'd all have to be moved, and the resulting redirects deleted. No PERSON wants to do that, so we'd have to get a bot. (Seriously, move 366 pages and delete 366 redirects? HELL NO!). Second of all, they couldn't be categorized (because they would also categorize [[Main Page]]), which would muck up [[special:uncategorizedpages]], but I'm sure we can all live with that.
::If we obtain a bot, I'm all for it. Makes the templates easier to browse. --<font color="blue">Aa</font><font color="green">rd</font><font color="yellow">va</font><font color="orange">rk</font> <small>([[User talk:Aardvark|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Aardvark|Contribs]])</small> 05:47, 30 Sep 2005 (MDT)
 
=Finalizing Changes=
 
Someone with some ambition needs to get samples of the finalized info going on on the real page instead of just this discussion page.  Excellent work all around.  --[[User:Jinya|jin]] 16:15, 19 Jun 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
 
{{rewrite|comment=This page needs to be cleaned up and the permanent standards moved to the real page instead of the discussion page.}}
 
= Template colors =
 
I would like to undertake the project of changeing the structure of the templates from
{{ItemsByName}}
to
{{Zap brownie}}
 
In paticular, the colors, the way the title is done with the ability to specify an icon for it.  This would be using an abstraction of the [[Template:Zap tgen]] which can be seen at [[Template:Box tgen]] and the talk page for [[Template:Axe]] to create a consistent look and allow easy changes in the future to the style of the site. --[[User:Shagie|Shagie]] 20:14, 21 Sep 2005 (MDT)
 
I like this. It seems like we'd need two templates; one without the image link. I doubt every box will have a corresponding image. --[[User:Snickles|Snickles]] 18:21, 28 Sep 2005 (MDT)

Latest revision as of 17:53, 11 October 2015

The Proposed Standards page should now be used for discussion of said standards. Previous discussions are available here.
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