Talk:Hardcore Familiar Analysis

Familiars

"Special" familiars

Bringing back the point that Snarles2 made, NPZR is very good for HP/MP restroation, especially for people new to hardcore. Also, its meat boost, deleveling, toast-stunning and attacking makes it a very valuable resource in hitting harder monsters. I know that many a times an adventurer has been saved just because of his NPZR. I'll put it at tier one even, but up to you. Potato should be bumped up a rank because its ability to stop attacks is crazy. A heavy potato can be strategically used to hit harder monsters. Evil teddy bear should get bumped one spot just because of its use in defeating the NS. --Zeider 04:21, 3 June 2007 (CDT)

• Considering that just about all familiars will be at least slightly changed/balanced with NS13, I think it's pointless to debate the current tiers now. It'd probably be wise to just erase the page when NS13 goes live, and then rewrite it from scratch... --Andemon 05:23, 3 June 2007 (CDT)

Dandy Lion

Why isn't the Dandy Lion included in this list? Is it usable in hardcore? If so, how useful is it? It seems to be more useful than the Sleazy Gravy Fairy as an item drop familiar. --Metroman 22:00, 29 March 2007 (CDT)

MP Cost blues?

You guys have to put Star Starfish and NPZR at tier II. There's no other way to pay for Antiphon before you get stasis without using one of the "Starfish" tricks (which work nicely with Mojomuscular and Madrigal) --As a mox class, use Starfish at high-level area --As a mus class, use NPZR at knob shaft (just re-discovered this, I'm pretty excited)! --Snarles2 21:28, 25 September 2006 (CDT)

Spooky Pirate Skeleton

I think the skeleton is slightly underrated as an ascension familiar. It's not just a straightforward combat familiar -- when it goes "Arrr", I believe it weakens the enemy, similar to a ghost pickle's juice. I haven't tested its effectiveness as opposed to the ghost pickle, but I've got a multi who's gotten a huge boost against the Sorceress from his pirate skeleton. --Fnord

• If I can get confirmation on the 'Arr' thing, I'll throw it up to a nifty rank three or four. I had no idea about that. Doing some searching the wiki itself doesn't even say that. --Zalan 7:36 AM EST 05/10/05

• • Subjunctive KoL — Not authoritative, of course, but I'm still looking. —Fnord (That's the only current mention I can find. An out-of-date page says "arrr" freezes people, but that site had other untrustworthy data.)

Missing familiars

The Doppelshifter, Temporal Riftlet, Sweet Nutcracker, Pet Rock, Snowy Owl, Teddy Bear, and Ninja Pirate Zombie Robot are missing from the familiars section. The doppelshifter is too random to be very helpful, the riftlet can give you an extra adventure or two, while farming for a tower item, the nutcracker attacks like a pickle, and buffs (except for against the NS, where it always attacks), the pet rock is useless, the owl is a basic attack familiar, the teddy bear is (was?) useful against the shadow, absorbing damage, and the NPZR is a cocoabo that gives toast. I was thinking about the following placement:

• Doppelshifter - IV
• Riftlet - III
• Sweet Nutcracker - II
• Pet Rock - Brand new section VI (and possibly moving the stab bat there. <.<)
• Snowy Owl - V
• Teddy Bear - III
• Ninja Pirate Zombie Robot - III

Thoughts? Suggestions? --Ricket 04:41, 9 February 2006 (Central Standard Time)

Those seemed like excellent suggestions so I just put all of them in. The Teddy Bear no longer works against the Shadow so I demoted it to IV. I also added the Wild Hare and Spirit Hobo to III and the Chattering Teeth to V, so as far as I know we're current up to May 2006 now. --Greg1104 06:51, 2 May 2006 (CDT)

• Thanks. I've been meaning to put all my suggestions in. >.> --Ricket 12:20, 3 May 2006 (CDT)

Inflatable Dodecapede

• If the Inflatable Dodecapede is best at low levels, why is it a Level I familiar to ascend with (which will presumably have > 0 kills when ascended with)? --Azimuth 11:35, 12 May 2006 (CDT)
  • I don't think any part of the page suggests it's one of the best to ascend with. --Ricket 16:57, 12 May 2006 (CDT)

Value of elemental Fairies

• At the bottom of the page in the list of the familiars the elemental fairies are valued as equal to the Baby Gravy Fairy, I would have to disagree with this descision. The ability to easily get the familiar equipment for the Baby Gravy Fairy places it high above the elemental fairies in my opinion as the damage dealt by these familiars is negligible in hardcore where item drop percentage is key. (The extra 5 pounds gives 12.5% item drop).

• That may be so, but a lead necklace gives only 2 pounds less, which loses you only 5% worth of item drop bonuses (resulting in only +7.5%) which isn't that big of a difference if you manage to level it up significantly. --Quietust 17:02, 30 March 2006 (CST)

• HOWEVER! Something that doesn't get noted is the disgusting ease one can obtain the Sleazy Gravy Fairy's hot pink lipstick, at times getting it on their very first adventure. Free +5 to Item Gain familiar level plus occasional combat damage makes it marginally more useful than most, perhaps even bumping it to level I. --Katarani 04:43, 30 June 2006 (CDT)

• I just updated all the notes on the elemental fairy listings to reflect the familiar equipment issue. During that, I agreed with Katarani that the sleazy fairy deserves a bump to tier I because of the equipment issues. I also pushed the Crimbo Elf back to II. My thinking is as follows: whether an item drop familiar does or doesn't attack is largely irrelevant in hardcore as far as I'm concerned; none of them do enough damage to really distinguish based on that. The tier I item drop familiars should be ones that provide very useful features in addition to item drop (like adding meat or having trivial to obtain equipment), while the ones in II don't. That's how they're split now. --Greg1104 00:30, 8 July 2006 (CDT)

Astral Badger

Personally, I think it should be grouped with the rank 3 familiars. It doesn't get a targeting chip, which automatically means it's worse than the MicroMechaMech as a combat familiar. Although the cupcakes have mostly similar effects to snowcones, you have to spend adventures trying to acquire them when snowcones can just be summoned. --Redwinger 17:43, 9 June 2006 (CDT)

• The person who inserted this familiar placed in I, with some good reasons as to why. I'm not sure I completely agree; while there are stat gains to be had via the Great Trips, they're expensive to obtain and you lose stats during the adventures with the Badger equipped. This topic deserves a hard look at the stat gain numbers involved. --Greg1104 00:30, 8 July 2006 (CDT)

Ghost Pickle on a Stick

I just demoted this familiar to II and updated its description to reflect why I felt that was appropriate. Does anyone have a good reason to defend why it belongs with the extremely useful familiars in I? --Greg1104 00:30, 8 July 2006 (CDT)

Wild Hare

I really think the Wild Hare should be ranked higher. I've been using it for 2 oxycore runs and have found it to be better overall than any other familiar. Granted that it doesn't give a set boost, but during my runs, I need random healing, I need greater item drops, I need great money drops and I need more stat points. I agree that those random traits would make it an iffy rank II familiar, but I have to say that getting around 3 - 4 bonus adventures a day plus the fact that I never lose 3 adventures to getting beaten up should really bolster this familiar's ranking to tier II. --Junyr 03:05, 8 July 2006 (CDT)

• You're solving problems that are better addressed by accumulating more skills with your familiar. If you're getting beaten up, make Tongue of the Walrus a permanent skill. If you need more item drops, add Mad Looting Skillz and Fat Leon's Phat Loot Lyric. For more money, add The Polka of Plenty. Once you add those basic skills, you'll only need more stat points from your familiar, and occasionally an additional boost to item drops; the Wild Hare will fall way behind a volleyball-type familiar plus gravy-type one at that point, even with the extra adventures the Hare gives. I'd suggest that you switch to unpathed ascensions for a while to get skills faster before returning to Oxy. --Greg1104 05:56, 8 July 2006 (CDT)

• Ah, point(s) taken. It works well for me since I'm trying to complete back to back oxycore by Crimbo, but I understand I'm not a normal hardcore player. Thanks for the discussion. --Junyr 00:50, 10 July 2006 (CDT)

Volleyball vs. Sombrero

There's a lot of information on which type of familiar you should use in softcore runs, but not so much for hardcore use. I just did a little reading and thinking on this subject in light of one recent subtle changes to the game in particular.

The basic strategy is:

• Go through the gash with the volleyball familiar
• When doing the usual 10 adventures at the arena to get a familiar buffing item very early in the run, level up the Sombrero with the first 9. Then switch to an elemental gravy fairy, so that you can't get a specific equipment item for at the arena. This will guarantee you get a lead necklace.
• At some point during your run, switch to the sombrero and keep it active until the end.

What would that point be though? The usual answer is somewhere around level 8, with the peak being one suggested breakpoint.

At http://forums.kingdomofloathing.com/viewtopic.php?t=32838&start=120 d0om notes that for the typical case where your volleyball type familiar is a bitten/pixie that generates meat:

"Of course the 40 pound bitten giving 3 times as much meat as a sombero means that at the peak your getting an extra 2ish stats / adv just from extra meat to donate."

This suggests the break point may be a little later than the peak.

Strangerer includes a big table comparing the two familiars to help answer many questions like this at http://forums.kingdomofloathing.com/viewtopic.php?t=32838&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=60 and he writes this sample commentary:

"You're in hardcore, with three familiar skills. Ever wonder if it would be useful to train your sombrero, and grab a lead necklace on a specialty fairy?

Answer: 9 arena trips and 4 combat adventures will set you up with a 25 lb sombrero. That's better than a 38 lb volleyball at 150 monster level, according to the table. On normal ascensions - not worth it, you'll only get to that level in the Hole in the Sky. On myst ascensions? Meh. The +11 levels the mind control device gives are just enough to make the sombrero useful in the castle."

I regulary equip a hippo whip for the entirety of the run once it's available to me in mid 8th level. That's +10 to ML, or basically the same as the MCD boost. Once in the Castle, I also equip the goth kid T-shirt for a total of +15 to ML. I think the Sombrero may very well be a win in this situation if I switch as soon as the castle is unlocked.

You also can't forget the dynamics of the Tower familiars here. If you're doing an ascension run with multiples of your main stat late in the run (like many speed Muscle and Moxie runs), it's not unusual to have your primary stat hit Level 11/104 well before your offstats are at 70. One situation I've run into several times is starting the tower with stats like 104/67/67. I haven't seen the tower quite get me all the way to 70 in that situation, but that was with a wimpy little sombrero. Going in there with a well trained one from the castle use may very well get you closer to a full 3 off-stat points in 6 adventures, which is quite a nice gain.

Finally, the changes of this week alter my thinking on this a bit (which is what rekindled my interest in the subject). The fact that you can buy a good MP boosting item at the Knob Goblin laboratory can change the dynamics of Muscle and Myst runs considerably. The meat savings of that over buying soda water are so huge that it's much easier to justify spending time to get the Elite Guard outfit. And once you've got that outfit, the pet buffing spray also becomes available; now we're comparing a 30 pound sombrero with a 43lb volleball. If you can survive there with a hippo whip, I believe that makes a switchover point at the Airship possible. Hmmm... --Greg1104 05:42, 8 July 2006 (CDT)

Comma Chameleon changes

A few changes to the Chameleon may in fact change its ranking. Namely,

• As an example, if it eats a prosthetic forehead, it turns into a goat for the purpose of the NS's familiars, as it does with the other respective equipment. This Makes Hardcore Easier.
• The wait for equipment has gone from 5 adventures in the arena to 2. Still a bit of a fight, especially if you're looking for the said familiars, but not that bad, considering.
• The duration of equipment use has gone from 30-40 to 40-50 adventures.
• The equipment eaten adds +5 no matter what, making objects like moonglasses more useful when eaten by a L20 Chameleon than when worn by a L20 Grue. This, again, Makes Hardcore Easier, though it's situational - you won't always face a boss on a day the Grue is active, and you won't always have moonglasses handy. --Katarani 01:02, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

I think the main interesting thing to do with the Chameleon is to use it instead of a fairy-type during the 9-turns at the arena players do at the beginning of the game to get an item for their volleyball type familiar. That should give you 4 familiars worth of equipment that may come in handy at various points. It also may be a useful place to go while beaten up. Unfortunately, the last time I tried to test this strategy the Chameleon (which is only good at Hide and Seek) couldn't beat any of the Arena familiars that day. --Greg1104 03:39, 26 August 2006 (CDT)

Robogoose

It's worth noting that the robogoose occasionally drops eggs at the end of combat, which can be sold for a bit of money, or used in combat (for, admittedly, the exact same thing as the robogoose itself does, but much more reliably.) Still, that extra bit of coin has the potential to be helpful at early levels. --GroovyJ 20:58, 24 October 2008

Baby Yeti

Why is this rated higher than the Starfish? I don't have a Yeti, but going from the wiki it seems to be worse as it attacks 25% and restores 25% of the time whereas the Starfish does both 33% of the time. The range for both looks the same. --Campboy 15:07, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Temporal Riflet

So if I'm reading things right, it's pretty much exactly the same as the emo squid, but also gives extra adventures. I'm confused as to how this got ranked in a lower tier than the Emo Squid. --Lxndr 16:43, 15 February 2008 (CST)

Because you get more e-peen for doing emo squid runs? --Flargen 17:09, 15 February 2008 (CST)

Black Cat/OAF

Correct me if i am wrong, but isnt the black cat functionally worse than an OAF, as it destroys items rather than autoselling them? and the fact that you can perma-unlock BM is thoroughly unrelated to this page, as nobody doing a cat run would need this page. Shouldnt it either be tier 8, or OAF tier 7 as well?--Alabit 22:26, 5 September 2008 (CDT)

The only thing good about the Black Cat is that it lets you unlock Bad Moon permanently, so it's a trade-off, while using an O.A.F. is good for nothing. That should be noted in the description. --JohnAnon 06:00, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Exotic Parrot?

The Exotic Parrot is currently in two tiers of familiar. This should be cleared up by someone who has a bit more authority and opinion regarding Hardcore relevance-- although I'm rather confident in saying that it's not a Tier I familiar. --Southwest 06:27, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

• Well, for those lacking certain skills it lets them get through various ascension relevant elemental tests; the trapper and the daily dungeon in particular. It could also be used to get into Guano junction, but this is probably unwise. It is a utility/niche familiar. Handy to have both before and after freeing the king, but not something you would really use to any extent. --Flargen 07:34, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
  • It's definitely not tier 1. Hardcore ascenders tend to get elemental resistance skills that make it unnecessary fairly early on, and comparing its utility to any of the other tier 1 familiars makes it clear that it belongs in a *much* lower tier. Likewise, the Crimbo Pressie probably deserves to be tier 1 (being about as useful as a NPZR). --Improv 15:09, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Some thoughts

Disembodied Hand and Mad Hatrack are probably Tier 1 or 2. They both aren't exactly tops of anything, but they're fairly versatile in allowing you do everything.

Cuddlefish is probably tier 4 or 5. It's 75% a Carnie in the hardcore context and doesn't drop healing items.

SFF is probably a tier 1. It costs a bit more than the PBS from accounts, but it drops stat items and serves the same purpose, just for players not around in 2005.

Mutant are all tier 1, per Jumpsuited Hound Dog.

Anyone have comments or suggeestions?--Toffile 16:11, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

• With the caveat that I am not at all an expert, I would argue that in the context of hardcore analysis, the Disembodied Hand, having to find a proper item (unless you prepare an SC HC/BM lead-in) before it can be put to use, should probably be in even a lower tier than II. I'd rank the Hatrack a bit higher than the Hand because of multipliers and plentiful hats. Slotting the Cuddlefish into VI and SFF into I seems fair for the reasons you've outlined. I'm not sure I'd slot all the mutants into I--have they been spaded out yet? The information doesn't look like it's propagated into the Wiki. The lep mutant I definitely wouldn't raise much higher than the regular lep unless the bonus is quite big. From my perspective, familiar attacks aren't all that useful. Maybe +1 to the unmutated familiar tier, for those whose enchantments aren't all that powerful? --Bagatelle^T/_C 04:32, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Another not-an-expert here. I agree with making the mutated familiars +1 to their base type, except in the case of the fire ant. The fire ant probably deserves +2 because of how important +items is. As for the Hatrack and Hand, how about Tier 2 and Tier 3? The Hatrack is obviously powerful, especially when you know what hats to use. As for the Hand, you always have some extra weapon around. The question is whether using the Hand is better than using something else. I. E. what would you use the Hand instead of? The answer to that question should tell us where the Hand should go. Irregular 22:45, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
    • A fully buffed sleazy gravy fairy is a 130-115% weight fairy. An unbuffed one is much more. (Only in hc, of course.)
    • The problem is of price, and I know people don't like that, but it's important. If you can afford everything, you don't need a chart, but otherwise, you need to know the best order to get things in. Having the shaman, the dark jill, the volleyball and the sleazy gravy fairy in the same tier is very silly.
    • I don't know. One way is to have 2 tiers of useful mr. a familiars, and a third tier of everything else, which is basically what's there now. Another way is to have a list of just fairies and just volleyballs under the first 2, and move the starfish and parrot and dodecapede to the bottom and call them Niche Familiars. That kind of breaks the symmetry, but it's partly like that now. I think that makes a little more sense. A list of pure volleyballs doesn't need tiers. You could make a tier of useless mr. store familiars, but where would you put it? This is too much work. :( Mar 23:55, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Thoughts on a new organization

Since this page has become rather out-dated, I think it might be time to look for a new and better way to rate familiars in Hardcore. As I see it, the order most speedsters desire things in is stats, items, MP, spleen, and meat. I know that I've probably missed something in that list. Anyway, we should probably reorganize the list so that the familiars that provide these things are higher tiered, and move the others lower. Thoughts? Irregular 04:38, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree that an organization with familiars separated based on their 5 main uses might help newer players, but I think most hardcore ascenders who are really into speed (which is why they come to these help pages, to speed up!) already understand these core mechanics. As the page is right now, true its coarse in ranking them in pretty generic tiers, but the individual notes on why each familiars is better/worse is what will really help them decide, while the tiers are just sort of guidelines to help them focus on which familiars are basically better than others. --Levio 04:55, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

He-Boulder and Rock Lobster

Rock Lobster, for all intents and purposes a starfish in hardcore play. Floaty sand is largely irrelevant to HC play as it stands, you need to be a muscle class and have to use at least 2 days worth of lobster drops in order to make pebblebrau.

He-Boulder has the 100% drop on non-conditional items, which is damn useful in early game as it lets you get most items needed for the eaarly quests easily, and frees up a semi-rare from the KGE outfit.

I hesitated on the Sandworm, since I'm not quite sure how the zones compares to Badger/Pixie/Llama.--Toffile 02:10, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

From the boards I've been reading, it's not as well-liked as the llama but it synergizes wonderfully with the other spleen familiars, especially in an Oxy run. I'd suggest Tier One or Two, because if you have neither of the spleen familiars then it's a no-brainer, and even if you have one or both, the guaranteed turns - with a sombrero, to boot! - is pretty appreciable. Although maybe not as much if you're not playing Oxygenarian. Oh, and I agree with your placements. I'm gonna put the clownfish with the other starfish. --Azeltir 03:55, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

The sandworm area drops definitely aren't really useful in a Hardcore run (and even moreso in Oxycore) (and the best applicable drop are what, the two pills?), but the bottles of Agua de Vida themselves are very useful. Unlike the other two spleen items, you don't need to wait 10-15 turns to obtain them, so you have a better chance to squeeze in extra adventures if you get lucky. However, they also don't give any stats. The sandworm definitely belongs in either Tier I or II, but that depends on how important those extra adventures are. Personally, I'd say Tier I, in that case.--JohnAnon 04:55, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

About the Sandworm, I can't verify this, but a lot of people seem to think the drop rate increases per Agua drop, if this is even relevant. Again, this is unconfirmed and even if it is true, it is probably offset by the lack of stats and slightly smaller adventure gains when compared to Roc feathers and !Pipes.

One notable use for an empty Agua de vida bottle is to flyer Cyrus and complete the Mysterious Island Arena quest within 6 turns provided you have a clover. Yet at the same time, the Arena quest can probably be done while star farming with enough +ML. Either way, it gives another, possibly easier option than throwing on +ML or the GMoB.

Additionally, is anyone planning to add the Slimeling? I'd think Tier I would be appropriate, given the fact that in addition to being similar to a Spirit Hobo and GGG, it actually helps feed itself in a way, because of the disgorging. --iridescentFUZZ 18:55 27 August 2009 (IST)

Okay, you know what? I'm adding the dang Baby Sandworm already. I'm making it Tier 1 based on the discussion already done here and elsewhere, and someone can move it to Tier 2 if they think it's justified. I'm just tired of all the other familiars being added and leaving the Sandworm hanging! :)

Don't forget to sign your posts please. Anyway, I've slightly changed the description on the Slimeling to accommodate the part about the disgorging, since that would very likely be a factor to consider when buying one. --iridescentFUZZ 20:35 29 August 2009 (IST)

Yet even more classification

• Gibberer - Maybe a bit early, but it's not going to be better than a Wild Hare, and probably not anywhere below it.
• Turtles - Grinning & Syncopated are essentially the same with a minor tweak above their basic counterparts that only affects 1 class. Familiar equipment is as easy to obtain as well. Wereturtle falls under the "yet another combat familiar" or YACF syndrome.
• Imitation Crab - YACF.
• Dragonfish - The spell damage boost is nice, but for hardcore myst, it's not an essential, and you'd probably be better off with a whelp or potato.
• Ragged Claws - YACF.
• Purse Rat - Probably the hard one. In any hardcore run, getting above 35-40lbs with any long-term consistency is hard, and the volleyball beats out the bonus stats. This means you'd be fighting harder enemies for no gain to you. The only real advantage is the Arena quest, but adding +10-20 ML isn't going to shave off many turns.--Toffile 17:33, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
  • In the early game in Bird Form as a muscle class, I've used the Purse Rat to increase monster HP which has helped to get an extra talon slash in. It's saved two Roc Feathers, so far.--Oculus 20:55, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

This page is worse than useless

Really. It should probably just be deleted. Anyone who has actually played hardcore knows that anything which doesn't increase items/stats/MP is horrible. Having a page which ranks the Dodecapede, Feather Boa or Cuddlefish higher than a Volleyball is terrible. It's objectively better than its counterpart certainly but it's utterly worthless.

Ranking familiars based on how good they are compared to their peers is not a good idea: a superpotato is actually worse than a potato in hardcore, because you might actually need the potato and when would you use a superpotato? Now, you can claim that this is obvious in context, but it's only obvious to people who aren't going to need the page in the first page.

The absolute last thing we need is newbies reading a page that tells them they should buy a crimo pressie and a fairychaun for hardcore. I can't think of a particularly good way to rewrite it, either. I guess you could have a list of the 'best' familiars (Boulder/Bander/Slimeling/Hound/Llama/Sandworm/Monkey) and then a list of 'good' familiars (pixie/GGG/hobo/volleychaun), a list of 'base' familiars (volley/sombero/fairy/leprechaun) and a list of 'if this leaves your terrarium you've done it wrong' familiars (most of your rank 2 and 3) but even that doesn't tell any kind of a great story. Where would you put something like a hatrack?

I would suggest in its current form, this page does more harm than good. --Hippoking 17:46, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

• Nope. I can agree with you that in its current form it's useless, and that a volleyball is better than a dodecapede, feather boa, or cuddlefish, but this page is akin to the Maximixing your (x) pages. Ranking familiars based on their superiority to their peers is not too bad of an idea. Why would you use a potato if you could use a superpotato? Why not use a potato+fairy instead of a potato? (Yes, I am not sure if one exists, but the idea is along those lines). Furthermore you're thinking in terms of speed running. Perhaps some people want to play through hardcore and not worry about speed; maybe then most of the information on this page is somewhat helpful. And newbies buying those high tier familiars? Why not? It gives them a goal to reach and adventure for and helps some peddlers with their wares. I would be concerned if they were ruining themselves to get it, but anyone who sees the high price tag should realize they shouldn't ruin themselves over something as simple as that. To call this page useless is an insult - it is solely... "under development".Argus 19:28, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
  • Hardcore Analysis/Strategy pages are based on speed. The simple fact is, if you don't care about speed HC, then you very likely do not care about what's good for Hardcore. Sure, there is a place for casual players to find information on things, but I think that it's sort of the definition of a casual player to not care much at all about how they're going about things. --RoyalTonberry 19:55, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
  • I agree that this page should be about speed. There are already at least four other pages that organize familiars by what they do. This page should be about which familiars are good and why.--P4n1q 04:52, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
  • I'm not sure I agree with the current tier structure, but I think there is a desire to see what familiars are best for hardcore, if the number of times the question is posted to the forums is any indication. The responses are very rarely "anything which increases items/stats/MP".--Oculus 20:50, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
  • I think the only familiars that could be considered in HCNP are boulder, bander, slimeling, llama, sandworm, hound, ggg, hobo spirit, hobo monkey, pixie, stocking mimic, and jack. I don't think you would ever run any other familiar unless it was to replace one of those that you didn't have, and some of those probably don't belong in Tier 1 because they don't save very many turns over their replacements.--P4n1q 03:52, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
• Good grief, how'd the Dodecapede get in there? Maybe the current layout could be switched from tiers to mixed tiers and tasks, with perhaps familiars ranked within their task category. Say,

Tier	Task
	Low-Level Stats	High-Level Stats	MP	Items	Special
1	Bandersnatch	Sandworm	Slimeling	Slimeling	Boulder

Kind of tricky to code, and frankly it's easier to digest if we just keep the tier structure. Maybe with the current familiar type column converted to a score column (how many of stats/MP/items/specials does it have?) --Bagatelle^T/_C 23:09, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

I'd rather prefer the mixed tier/task thing, too. Maybe change or add/remove one or two categories as well. The problem with the current tier is that it's based mostly on functionality, as in "how many different things it can do," rather than "how much it's actually useful in a HC run." --JohnAnon 01:32, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

I think rethinking the tiers could be it.

1. Awesome familiars that greatly speed up a run (He-Boulder, volleyfairy, Sandworm)
2. Improved versions of the core familiars important for speed (fairychaun, Sleazy Gravy Fairy, Hound Dog)
3. Basic core familiars to which the rest are compared to, plus their about-equal variants (Current section 4 - I mean the higher of the two sections labeled 4, although I'd say drop the MAS)
4. Awesome familiars for special situations (Mr. A grade familiars that don't do stuff that's particularly important for speed)
5. Improved familiars for special situations (MAS, nemesis familiars for their respective classes)
6. Basic-level familiars for special situations (leprechaun, ghuol whelp, grue)
7. Weak familiars for special situations (lime, mosquito)
8. Useless familiars (the old second-to-last category)
9. Actively hindering familiars (the old last category)

--Nerdanel 20:00, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

7th June 2010 Rewrite

Oh by the way I went ahead and rewrote this page. It's still in the old format, just not hilariously wrong anymore. It still needs some tweaking, but at least it might be useful now. --Melon 21:28, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

- I'm not sure the Tier system is really that useful. Mainly it's the numbers that are misleading; apart from outliers like the Boulder, familiar management in Hardcore has more to do with what you need for a specific task than what familiar is better than another...wouldn't it be more practical to sort things by type (maybe: fairies, stat fams, spleen fams, starfishes, misc) and then describe the particular differences between, say, and pixie and a slimeling within each group? There are some areas where something is strictly better (leprechaun vs. hobo monkey, say), but usually selecting a familiar is a question of solving a particular problem. All of which is a long-winded way to say I think "purpose" is a better metric for sorting than "power." --Maddsurgeon 18:11, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

The current changed page is centered on familiars to have instead of the other way which would be familiars to use in a run. For example, a mosquito is a very weak familiar that is 40% of the time needed to ascend. I'm not sure if the tower familiars should be a tier of their own instead of classifying them according to their power in normal play and having a note that the familiar is a must-have anyway. Else changing their tier to something like tier one could be better. Also, the differences between familiars classified as "rubbish" are significant to people doing 100% runs and to low-skill, low-money people doing difficult boss fights.--Nerdanel 16:19, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

My revamp was mainly to try and stop the spread of misinformation that was originally on the page, so a lot of stuff will need changing. (I'm just saying this to hopefully encourage more people to give input). For the tower familiars, I agree. I felt that they needed a mention because of their necessity, but maybe that's better suited to a paragraph at the top of the page rather than in the table and the familiars should be judged on the same merits as the others. I'll go ahead and change that. As far as difficult boss fights go, I originally was going to put the Disembodied Hand in the niche tier because I use it every ascension for the Naughty Sorceress, but then I figured that rating familiars on their boss fight ability was unnecessary and would only cause the page to become more complicated and less useful. Somebody should feel free to clarify the differences though, I didn't really have the time and I think "rubbish" for all of them is friggin' hilarious, so I won't be changing it. As for 100% runs, I really don't think that that's the point of this page, but I might be wrong.--Melon 17:31, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Something to also consider is "what is the target audience of this page." Is it people that want to go faster? That's how we set up the Hardcore Skill Analysis page, since if a player is casual, they probably don't care all that much what skills they perm (analogously what familiar they're using). If someone is looking at an analysis page, they're very probably looking to see what they can do to be faster, "what is good for Hardcore." With that in mind, you might want to have the tower familiars in their own special tier at the top of the page. Sure, an experienced player already knows it, but what about a new player just getting into HC and wants to know what familiars are good? They may not know about the potato, and if they look at this page, and it's at the top with that big warning there, it might save them. They may not be awesome familiars on their own, but they are absolutely necessary. --RoyalTonberry 19:40, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

It's typical that as soon as I remove the tower familiar tier that someone comments that there should be one. :p However putting them in their own special tier at the top would probably be for the best (I originally had them as tier 4 or something like that, which didn't really make an sense in retrosect). I'll go and do that now. My target audience was indeed for speed, but I've been out of the loop for a while on that so I imagine some of the familiars may need shuffling about. --Melon 18:32, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

I put the Pet Rock-type familiars in the Comedy section, to further separate "not good for hardcore" from "not good for anything" - that was a bit I sort of preferred from the old version. I also tried to add an explanation of the rankings at the top, because it rankled me that the "rubbish" section mostly didn't explain why. Additionally, I'd suggest, but don't have time to do, color coding the familiars by availability (Mr Store, events, clan dungeon, ascension-specific, normal run, etc.) similar to how Maximizing Your Item Drops does. Lady Oolong 05:11, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Not all elemental starfish are equally useful. The cold and spooky ones do not belong in the same tier as sleaze and hot.--P4n1q 04:48, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

• I admit that I listed the Underworld Bonsai (Spooky) mainly for completion, but the Snow Angel (Cold) is more useful than the Midget Clownfish (Sleaze) by far. Players can get double MP from Hippies as well as Fratboys, which both you have to deal with, the time you set foot on the island and again when you do the Level 12-Quest. The Clownfish might help during the Level 6-Quest, but that quest doesn't take nearly as many adventures. When fighting Fratboys on the island it's renderd useless. However you're probably right about the Underworld Bonsai's misplacement. Feel free to decide a new tier for it. --Yatsufusa 16:56, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
  • There's a slight misconception here. The utility of the elemental starfishes is to get MP much greater than the HP of the monster. Near the start of a run, at level 6, a midget clownfish can easily give you 100+ MP per turn. Now, I will admit that yes, in the frat war, a Snow Angel can give you a solid 350 MP per turn; however, the impact of that 350 MP at level 12 is far, far less than the impact of 100 MP at level 6. Additionally, you can also consider what a regular starfish might give you at that point. Maybe around 70-80 for level 6, and maybe around 300 at level 12. Furthermore, the MP you get early on fuels stat-gaining things like Ur-Kel's and other buffs. Later in the game, you'll have enough MP source that you should be using a Buggedbear, Hipster, or Sombrero on the battlefield for stats. More abstractly: Anything that helps day 1 significantly is a lot more useful than something that might help day 4. (I'd even go so far as to argue that if you're using a Snow Angel on the Battlefield, it's actually hurting you) --RoyalTonberry 18:53, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
    • If you explain it that way, I can see what the original intention for listing them here was. Maybe someone could add this insights to the article. --Yatsufusa 19:27, 24 September 2010 (UTC)