Talk:G-Lover/Strategy

It seems like there are some conflicting ideas in a few areas, and it ought to be useful to discuss them here instead of reverting edits.

For example, Advanced Saucecrafting is still essential in this path, even if most reagent potions don't work. 15 extra adventures per day through the milk of magnesium is always nice to have. --Volc (talk) 19:46, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

Lucky Lindy

@Volc while lucky lindy is not available in standard, if you break ronin but are still in path your standard restrictions drop. Also, it is a section discussing the availability of semi-rare's, the only reason lucky lindy is not available IS the standard limitation, but it is still somewhat relevant for a semi rare discussion of path strategy. --Taltamir (talk) 20:57, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

Oh, also, in 30 days path goes out of standard, at that point lucky lindy will become available to those playing it out of season. Which I did not mentioned previously because I didn't think of it, but would make it a very useful tool for out of season strategy of this path. --Taltamir (talk) 21:02, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

I am hesitant to include strategies that are only available post-ronin, since those that seek out strategic assistance here would either want to do their runs in less than 1000 turns or simply don't have the resources (including the VIP key) to do so. It is why I only listed IotMs / familiars that are standard relevant specifically.

It is better off added in once standard restrictions drop, if anything, since there will be no further attempts at leaderboards by that point.--Volc (talk) 23:09, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

I see no problem with it so long as it is labeled... that said, not really worth fighting over since you agree to include to it in 30 days when it goes out of standard. --Taltamir (talk) 19:04, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

Passive skills

Given that all passives work as normal, it is redundant to list and describe each one, is it not? They don't really hold any significant influence within a G-lover run, and if they do, they can be noted on a case-by-case basis. --Volc (talk) 05:08, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

This is a strategy guide, so it is not redundant to discuss the specific value of each available skill to the strategy, as well as how its functionality has been impacted (many passive skills are available, but their value has changed, such as them boosting an active ability that cannot be used, or producing items that cannot be used). This is also how it has been done in the avatar path's guides (where skills are drastically different), where every skill is discussed; I think the overall skill availability is drastically different here enough to treat it the same. Besides, wanting people to already know all the relevant skills defeats the purpose of a relatively new player using a guide, and if they already do know all of the relevant skills then they don't need the guide. (edited for clarity) --Taltamir (talk) 19:14, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

The difference, however, is that avatar paths provide entirely new skills that replace the default ones, and even then, they largely only discuss the skills that have an impact on a run. Erosionseeker already went ahead and altered things anyways, and I don't disagree with him in this area. It is only worthwhile to discuss the active / passive skills that have a reasonable impact on the run. --Volc (talk) 18:51, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

A lot of the skills he deleted do have an impact on the run, as well as having altered functionality in that run... like how more/better crits skills lose out on the "automatically crit" active attack skill. They also deleted a bunch of skills as "irrelevant" that might have some use. I personally will not touch HC of this path with an 11 foot pole, but from those who have I hear that they are sometimes forced to eat pizzas due to lack of food availability, so pizza lover is not irrelevant. And having the familiar level up 20% faster is also a decent buff. Meanwhile Sing was left in as a relevant skill --Taltamir (talk) 19:40, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

Superior Items

While badge of authority is indeed superior to ring of aggravate monster, it is a single copy only item, and you have 3 separate accessory slots. So if you really need ML for a quest having both of them at once is viable. --Taltamir (talk) 19:04, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

While true, a decent run only has so many pulls before breaking the ronin phase, and there ought to be enough sources of ML available otherwise. Even without IotMs, +20 ML is usually a decent threshold for speeding the oil peak substantially as well as cutting turns in other zones.--Volc (talk) 18:51, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

Fair point. --Taltamir (talk) 19:40, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

blessed rustproof +2 gray dragon scale mail

While it is true that it is mentioned under genie. It doesn't use its full name, nor does it in any way indicate that it is a tradable item you can just buy as is. Furthermore, people are unlikely to dig through IOTM that they do not own. So I believe it bears mentioning in the notable items category. --Taltamir (talk) 19:04, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

• also of note, is that we don't delete all the mr store (or derivative) familiars from the familiars section just because they are mentioned in the mr store section. It is indeed repetition, but helps if someone is looking at a specific section of the guide. --Taltamir (talk) 19:31, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

Fair enough. Although erosionseeker removed the section, a softcore pull section is still ideal for some potent equipment and other useful pulls, so I'll set up a new section for this later on.--Volc (talk) 18:51, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

Please do, I think removing all advice related to softcore is going too far. Especially while calling it "not relevant to anybody". From the discussion I have seen the vast majority who are doing G lovers are doing softcore because the hardcore garland reward increase is the same for SC and HD, making HD completely pointless. Likewise the notion that nobody can possibly break ronin... I am doing softcore, day 1-3 eating gallon of milk with milk and drinking hacked gibsons, day 4 eating astral hotdogs, breaking ronin, then drinking hacked gibsons with a buffbot given ode. It is not that hard to do. --Taltamir (talk) 19:40, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

Mafia Thumb Ring

>21:08, 23 July 2018‎ The ErosionSeeker (Talk | contribs)‎ . . (38,825 bytes) (+48)‎ . . (Added potential pulls. Removed thumb ring. Please stop giving advice for pulls that maybe-possibly generate <5 turns a day.)

Mafia thumb does not give "less than 5 adv a day". Just today it generated 11 adventures for me according to mafia tracking. According to discussion people estimate it to have 4% or 5% chance to trigger, so you can reasonably expect it to generate 30-50 free adventures per ascension. Also, it would be great if you started a discussion here to verify if advice XYZ is useless first instead of just keep on deleting things. Especially when said advice clearly states the scenario for which it is used (I still can't believe you actually deleted the entire softcore pulls section earlier as useless... that was ridiculous). --Taltamir (talk) 05:36, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

Brimstone

The ErosionSeeker can you explain why you think brimstone is useless? Especially when I was explicitly listing what it actually gives? In G lover it gives +64 item, +64 meat, +64 monster level, +80% muscle, +30% mox, ~50% damage reduction, weapon is a club, and some other things. Those are some hefty bonuses that really help with a run,. and it is not even IOTM. --Taltamir (talk) 05:36, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

Why I don't think Taltamir should be giving advice

You have constantly added advice that is either not helpful to people looking to get good at the path, or outright asking people to do things that are detrimental to their playing of this path. Your commentary on why certain SC passives are good suggest a misunderstanding of strategic play. +2 HP regen per adventure is meaningless. Double-Fisted Skull Smashing is not good because it lets you use a second Bad Moon reward. +10 weapon damage is absolutely something to scoff at. Telling people to have skills like Pizza Lover (which by the way only works on knob sausage, a 15% drop from a 1/3 monster zone, or goat cheese, a 40% from another 1/3 monster zone) suggests that they should either get this skill, or they should use this skill. Telling people to break ronin so they can "do it easier" is either telling decent people that they should slow down "for strategy", or reinforcing the opinions of players who already can't do <1000 turn runs anyway. It's advice that keeps people slow. The advice on pulling Brimstone is emblematic of why I think you have a misunderstanding on what a strategy page is for. Telling people to pull Brimstone is shocking. Pulling 6 pieces of gear acquired from Hardcore Bad Moon (an objectively slower path than G-Lover) to help with low resource softcore is irresponsible. Pulling a +5 ML ring "because it can help" is literally an untruth: +2% chance of a drunken rat king, and no reasonable threshold for which adding +5 ML gets you the next oil monster. You would do better by pulling dress pants. Drescher + Canadia/Gnome is 20 ML (and I know how people give the advice that newbies should supposedly take those signs because +5 turngen and infinitely acquirable food or booze). Why not pull the Jokester's Gun for free kills and damage? Why not tell people to pull the pearl diver's ring for +20 ML? Why not dice gear because that gives you meat, eggnog, hippy gear, and pixels? Why not suggest pulling the gnawed-up dog bone (genuine)? If you want 50 turns for one pull, you pull vintage smart drink. If you want item and meat buffs, you pull Always Be Collecting. You don't pull an item that essentially doesn't do anything other than give a 4% chance of +1 adventure, and you also don't pull 6 items that the only players who apparently could benefit from, can't even get in a reasonable time frame. You might as well suggest that people pull the Mime Army Challenge Coin because if you're lucky that's like +120 adventures. I do not wish to verify whether your suggestions are useless or not, because literally nobody else thinks that the thumb ring is a strategy pull, and you think your suggestions are good, which is why you suggested them in the first place. I'm sure you're just trying to be helpful, but I wouldn't ask a surgeon to help fix a car. --The ErosionSeeker (talk) 02:18, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

---

Your reading comprehension is utterly deplorable. you took me writing "this skill is available in this path, this is what it does" and took it to mean "taltamir is advising you get this skill right now now now" . Even when you barely spent the minimum effort to skim through my analysis you didn't pay attention. "could maybe save some meat if it was permed" means that if it isn't permed it isn't even going to pay for itself in savings. Yet you took this to mean a glowing review and me saying you must get it right away. Also, the benefit of having an offhand bad moon reward is the +50% strength boost and +30 weapon damage enchantment, I don't know where you are getting +10 from... and that was an example of how the skill works rather than "do this". This is not a hard guide of "blindly do this and that". This guide is written entirely in an informative tone of "this does X, and might be potentially useful for some players". Pizza lover is something I will never use in G because I only do softcore G (like most people), where I pull all my food. However multiple people have mentioned to me in chat that they have been forced to eat pizza in hardcore and found that the skill is actually not useless all; of the sudden, this is not the same as "you must get this now now now". I didn't tell people to "pull brimstone", I said that brimstone is notable for the majority of its effects working despite not having G in the name, and is potentially useful if you already had it. Your view of who is allowed to use this guide is ridiculously narrow, just like earlier you deleted the entire softcore pulls section as "irrelevant" and volk had to put it back, you are under the impression that it is impossible for someone to be playing the game with the bad moon rewards yet a low overall ascension count, which is ridiculous as it is obviously possible for such cases to exist. (I got the bad moon set by my 12th ascension. Under the reasoning that bad moon cannot benefit from perms or anything else really from other ascensions, so I might as well do it first and use its karma to boost less restrictive paths). I also note that you have never provided an alternative to brimstone. Where are your own pull advice that for 6 pieces give you ~55% damage reduction, +80% mus, +30% mox, +64 ML/item/meat for the entire rest of the run? Also you seem to have forgotten that +ML helps people level up, which is needed if they don't have IOTM up the wazoo. --Taltamir (talk) 21:42, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

Actually, lets take a step back. Initially volc has written down a list of all active skills that have a G in their name and function in this path. In a compact one line format, letting people design their own strategy with the info of what is available in this path. You went ahead and deleted some of those skills and renamed the list to "relevant active skills" instead of "available". This shows a fundamental difference in how to approach guide making, informative or instructional. The main crux of your issue with me seems to be that you are under the mistaken impression that I am instructional like you, when I explicitly pointed out that some of the things I listed as available are not actually all that useful. That said, we do disagree on a few specific things in regards to usefulness and I welcome a discussion on it in its own item section, one that is less hostile --Taltamir (talk) 22:18, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

---

I'm not sure why you're still mad that I "removed the entire softcore pulls section" (http://kol.coldfront.net/thekolwiki/index.php?title=G-Lover%2FStrategy&diff=666233&oldid=666189), considering all it contained was ring of conflict, badge of authority, and brimstone. You're still mad now, because a staggering majority of this reply is trying to rationalize pulling gear that instantly halves in power the moment you need to change 1 slot, and becomes negligible the instant you have to empty 2 or 3. Claiming that I have to provide an alternative 6-pull set that gives the things that brimstone happens to give suggests that brimstone is worth pulling in the first place.
Having this conversation is pointless, because you trying to spread this meme of pulling brimstone in the same breath as ring of conflict/badge of authority suggests that the two are equivalent, and because both those being returned to the page (in sections I even went to organize) is again implying that pulling 6 brimstone was defensible in the first place. I'm sure there's someone out there who fits the exact specific circumstance for which this is a good idea, but there's also someone out there who would really love to have plexiglass listed, and someone who would love to have stainless steel listed, or whatever other absurdist suggestion. Either brimstone is something that people should get, because you keep citing all of these amazing enchantments it gives, or they're actually bad and shouldn't be considered.
You are 100% allowed to make decisions for your runs that I or other people think are not productive, because it's your gameplay experience. But when you try to post that as a legitimate suggestion for others, that stops being okay. "If you do not want your writing to be edited mercilessly and redistributed at will, then do not submit it here."--The ErosionSeeker (talk) 03:20, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

---

I am not "mad", don't try dismissing my points like that, and are you seriously defending your choice to deleting the ring of conflict? it and disgeist are the only cheap and easily accessible methods non noncombat%. Also, I am not equating their value to brimstone, rather I am saying you are very delete happy, as well as why you seem to be mistaken about my intentions (instructional vs informative), where you skimmed through my posts and missed the parts where I am saying "this works in G, but is kinda bad" and took it to mean "taltamir listed it, therefore he says you must use it". As for brimstone, even thought breaking the outfit ruins its functionality, you can still wear it for 99% of the run and use its benefits. Yes it is 6 pulls, but it also has many effects and is a permanent item instead of a consumable, giving ML for daycount (particularly important without IOTM), high stats for combat, item for speeding up many quests, meat for speeding up the nuns. As for dice/plexiglass being better... ok, so what? just like brimstone you need to already have it on hand, you said yourself that farming path gear specifically for G is not reasonable to expect. You are also doubling down on your notion that I am ordering people to use brimstone even when I already said otherwise, I was providing information of "what still works in G lover" and how brimstone is an outfit whose functionality is almost entirely intact despite not having G in the names of 5 of the 6 items. The reason I didn't list dice gear or plexiglass is because I had simply not had a chance to get around to them, not because I am trying to force people to use brimstone, I originally intended to list all outfits that retain significant functionality in this path and let people make their own strategic choices based on their current availability, hence literally creating a section called outfits. Just like how before you went on a deleting spree people have listed all the active skills that worked on this path and let people make their own choices. However, you deleted the outfit section before I had managed to do so and thus we are having this discussion. --Taltamir (talk) 01:57, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

• As someone who looks at these pages when I decided to do this runs, what I usually expect from these pages is what I should do complete runs as quickly as possible. I think this page has WAY too much unnecessary information, speaking as someone with very minimal knowledge on speed ascending, almost everything from the quest progression section on should be scrapped from this page. This page should really just tell you what the best (or second best) options (class/astral items/sign/G Purchases) to choose when ascending, and the best strategies to get things done as quick as possible. I'm not saying that this information shouldn't be put in the wiki, but i don't think the Strategy page isn't really the place for it. So the real question is, is this page for speed ascending or for new players? My solution: Having a separate page for the changes (Divergences) and items affected (or unaffected in some cases) by the G restriction. This way people can easily look it up, especially when it leaves standard in 2 weeks, without cluttering the strategy page. --Icon315♕ (☎|♤) 08:39, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
  • That is an excellent point and I am now convinced, a separate and more exhaustive divergence page sounds like a great way to keep the strategy page more concise. --Taltamir (talk) 22:30, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

---

• First, I think this page is much more comprehensive than we've had in the past, and I'm impressed with the amount of contributions. I think it's lost some conciseness, especially in the list of IotMs, and I think the decision to separate active skills by what class owns them is perhaps a bad idea, given that all skills are permable and unlikely to be bought in-run.
• On whether the page should be targeted at high-end speed ascenders or people who don't want ascending to take weeks, I think we've historically gone for the former, while this page is currently a mix of both without clear distinction. I believe that adding the odd note for people without IotMs is helpful, although this seems to be mostly limited to the softcore pulls section, which also includes pulls like the mime army challenge coin, which is likely only useful to the extreme high-end ascender who has no other turn-saving pulls available, is 30 turns off reducing daycount by one, and is willing to accept it only working half the time (e.g., they're looking to leaderboard).
• On Pizza Lover: I can see the use. I think somebody would only go Hardcore if they care about the gattoo over the Garland, and they can do Hardcore less than twice as slow as softcore. Without the Gnat or Witchess, finding food is more of a struggle: with low item drops, going for goat cheese pizzas seems reasonable. With more item, I think it would be better going for Saucemaven / Pastamastery and farming the kitchen for dry noodles to make reagent pasta, but I don't really know how feasible it is for a very low-skill player to go for a 15% drop over a 40% in a 3 monster zone. Then again, perhaps players with such low item would be better off running softcore.
• On ML: I think you'd be better powerlevelling than pulling such minor amounts of ML. The purpose of running ML is that you're already going so quickly through the quests that you've run out of quests to do at the council (or things that help council quests, like pirates), and need to powerlevel. If you're considering pulling ML, you should first consider whether you can pull something that saves more turns: I suspect you probably can. Clovers are an obvious cheap one in this path, for the chasm or for the protestors. Bombs are better for the protestors, and fluffers are good for the war. Even if you do need to powerlevel, a gallery clover is about 300 stats, and running the gallery or bedroom without clovers should get you to the next level quite quickly. Consider running a volleyball or sombrero, if you're not already. I feel that the "run ML" meme has been imported from speed ascenders to people who shouldn't really be considering it. Yes, on the very high end running even more ML allows degenerate quest ordering, but that seems far out for somebody considering pulling the full Brimstone set. I can see that it's good for QoL and not thinking about your outfit, but I feel there are better pulls.
• On the quest progression: I'd actually consider this important for planning purposes for high-speed ascension. Knowing that the machete and surgeonosity work despite lacking Gs is important. Knowing that you need to talk to Dakota before doing the Heart is important. Knowing that you need to get gauze garters to beat the Shadow is important, as is knowing about sonars, as is knowing about Stone-Faced in the Temple. Knowing about quest differences, plus the knowledge that Ode to Booze works if you can get it, is probably the most important part of the page (along with the list of -combat sources): it's what I scribbled down in my notepad before running this path for the first time, in addition to where to get food and booze in Hardcore.
• --Ryo_Sangnoir (talk) 11:08, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
  • I am impressed, it looks like you read that entire argument in depth despite being a huge wall of text, and you make good points all around. Thank you.
  • Thanks for the advice on pulls. To clarify, I should note that on a 4 day run (with low IOTM) where one pulls a full diet (hacked gibsons and gallon of milk), enough clovers/sleaze to completely skip zepplin protesters, and stuffing fluffers. I still ended up with many open slots for pulls that I didn't really have anything particularly valuable to put in even after looking at the full list of available pulls here on the guide. Since 4 day run comes out to a total of 80 pulls. Although in retrospect that is rather specific scenario, and perhaps too specific for a guide. I have since bought some more IOTMs that should easily push me to 3 day run, which cuts down on pulls.
  • Am I missing something about the smut orc clover pulls. A clover there costs an adventure for 3 wood/glue. With a little +item, a hatchet and a lode stone (pulls/canadia) it seems to end up with each clover saving 1-2 adventures.
  • Actually looking at the guide right now. If you pull literally every item on the softcore pulls section over a 4 day run to the maximum quantity usable, including a whopping 28 stuffing fluffers, it still only comes out to 62/80 pulls total. And pulling that many fluffers is unreasonable. So having some less optimal pulls to fill in those extra slots might be reasonable --Taltamir (talk) 22:30, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
    • You're not missing anything on smut orcs: that's exactly the right way to look at it. More ML saves no turns for one pull, a clover saves at least one turn for one pull: the clover is better. That was the point :).--Ryo_Sangnoir (talk) 10:29, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
      • Oh I see, its meant as "even the worst use of clovers is still better than ML" rather than "orc clovering is a very good use of pulls/clovers".
      • ML is not useless. I see that you have all of the in standard IOTMS, those give a massive amount of free substats which can make ML redundant for you personally. But for people with fewer or even no IOTMs it is a struggle to level fast enough. a couple of days ago I bought a bunch of the in standard IOTMs and while it massively improves the situation it is still somewhat of a problem (noteworthy is that I am testing this run without the god lobster at all, god lobster is amazing for leveling). End of day 2 I have finished almost everything that can be done before level 11 (need to wait until tomorrow for spleen to clear up to take nightmare fuel before finishing the defiled niche, which will take me about 5 adv; also left a few turns on bossbat to combo with the day 3 copperhead club from level 11 quest), I even used genie to get 4 of lobsterfrogmans and used all my seal summons for some extra XP, I am at 400 turns spent on the run, and spent most of the run at ML of +74. I am 1687 substat short of reaching level 11 and unlocking the level 11 quest. At my current mainstat of 95 each clover gives me 190 substat, which means I need 9 clovers to reach level 11 and unlock the next quest. Having that +64 ML from brimstone gives ~10.56 mainstat substats per fight. Assuming just 300 of the 400 turns spent were combats with that outfit worn, then the outfit earned me 3168 mainstat xp (only 50% goes to mainstat, which I accounted for), this is equivalent to ~17 clovers spent on XP farming during mid level 10. Spending 6 pulls to gain the equivalent of 17 clovers is a net gain of 11 pulls. I actually went to sleep with a lot of unused adventures, that way I can save some farming by gaining substats by eating and drinking tomorrow and then have a full day, as well as use my spleen to finish the defiled nich in much fewer adventures. I am far from the only one facing this issue from what I am hearing in chat from other people doing glover. There are a variety of substat granting IOTMs that are absolutely ridiculously good at granting you that XP you need so that you can skip ML boosting, having access to all of them has skewed your view on ML and has made you think it is lacking in value, because for you it is not valuable. You can get all the XP you ever need from IOTMs. --Taltamir (talk) 01:12, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
        • I agree with you that ML is not useless: I try to run as close as possible to +150 ML all the time until I reach level 12. I'm glad that you've done the sums and worked out that Brimstone is worth it for you (versus clovers). I was surprised because we're having such different levelling experiences -- in my last standard run I hit level 12 around turn 210, near where I ended day 1, but looking at it the IotMs I see affecting stat gain are Snojo, Witchess, protonic pack, LOV (significantly), mumming trunk, garbage tote and God Lobster, and looking at the logs I'm gaining around 100 main stat per snojo fights, so I suppose there's just such a gulf there. My (HC) G-Lover runs are completely different in that I can't run a stat-familiar because I'm running the gnat to get enough bacon for milk, so my familiar stats come from the mumming trunk, and I can't run nearly as much ML. Looking at the logs, I hit level 11 at turn 223, which is again quite a different experience to yours. It looks like I mostly ran +60 ML from the Eardigan, tinsel tights and Drescher, and I could boost that with Driving Recklessly (after I got enough meat for the breadcar) and training belt (from day 3 onwards, as I went for the helmet first). Indeed, I'm still confused here: even with all my extras, you're still levelling around half as fast as I am. I'll have to check the logs to see how many stats I get from the free fights / trunk / garbage shirt.--Ryo_Sangnoir (talk) 21:32, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
          • Looking at the Advancement page, level 11 requires a total of 10816 substat. If you reached it by turn 223... lets say that was 190 combats? So that is 4702 mainstat out of the 10816 came from the ML; 43%. Add in all those free fights and it probably covers the difference. I was also under utilizing the garbage shirt, I only got that IOTM about a week ago and was under utilizing it. BTW, what are your sources of ML? Looking at the strategy page, it lists +10 ML from drescher's annoying noise, +10/11 ML from ascension sign, and +25 ML from kremlin's greatest briefcase. While stating that ML sources are rare in this path. How are you getting your 150 ML in glover? --Taltamir (talk) 01:38, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
            • 150 was in standard. In G-Lover: Drescher (+10) + LOV Eardigan (+25) + tinsel tights (+25) = 60, which was what I ran for the most part. If I got the right ghost, I also ran Carpathian longsword for another +10. You can add Driving Recklessly (+25) and training belt (+25) for +120. I almost always had the KGB on -combat to round out my -25%, flipping to +adv at day's end, but you could, as you mentioned, use it for +ML instead, giving another +25 for a total of +145. If you got very lucky (or actually bothered to learn ghost ordering, unlike me), you could add another Carpathian longsword, duel-wielded for 155. If you dare to go non-Knoll, that's another +10-11.--Ryo_Sangnoir (talk) 17:42, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
• I like this guide. It helped me. The wiki isn't gospel. The wiki can be edited. I'm pretty happy there are folks that are willing to work on the wiki, discuss things, make mistakes and learn from them, and make it nicer for players that don't know or care enough to make a wiki account themselves. And I'd much rather more info than less, even if it's superfluous ~Erich ^t/_c 15:19, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

ML suggestion: CARNIVORE button

wouldn't a carnivore button be better than a badge of authority? lower reqs, +5 more ML, right? is the autosell value that important, or is +5 ML the difference between life and death in some strategies? Megamaw (talk) 02:50, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

It doesn't have a 'G', so it won't work.--Volc (talk) 04:11, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

For the future: general Strategy vs Speed Strategy

There seems to be a divide in terms of what to expect from these pages. Personally, looking at past challenge path pages, especially for something like Bees Hate You (which is very similar to this path), I like seeing more comprehensive information. In particular, the last few challenge paths have been unpleasantly lacking in strategic contributions (especially avatar-style paths, which generally deserve their own pages), so I went ahead to organize this page to be on par with the challenge path pages of old.

That being said, KoL is a mix of both worlds: those that seek to aim for the top leaderboard spots (and possess a large number of IotMs / skills permed) versus those that are working with fewer resources, yet seek to make their ascensions less stressful / more enjoyable, as well as cutting the daycount to something reasonable (even if not top tier). Perhaps future challenge paths should have two distinct pages - one for general / lower end strategy, and one for speed / higher end strategy. That way, people can seek out what they need specifically a bit easier. --Volc (talk) 16:38, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

• I am wholly in favor of this idea. --Taltamir (talk) 04:55, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
• Actually, what about also having an out of standard guide too? by taking a copy of the general guide once it goes out of standard, updating it for out of standard items, and continuing to update it in the future as new stuff comes out? --Taltamir (talk) 09:06, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

While it doesn't hurt, continually updating a guide for a path that is unlikely to be popular doesn't seem fruitful, as it doesn't hold the same replay value as an avatar-style path would. Personally, I'd go with adding a post-standard section and adding only IotMs/familiars/skills that are relevant/important for the path, perhaps in the form of providing functionality that is unavailable or inaccessible while it remains in standard. --Volc (talk) 14:54, 9 August 2018 (UTC)