Talk:Maximizing Monster Level
Don't you think we should change the accessories to include C.A.R.N.I.V.O.R.E. buttons? They give +15ML... --Dom 15:39, 28 July 2007 (CDT)
- For villa and ascender I would say yes. But given their current mall price, I'd say no for normal and lizardman. --J12601 16:57, 28 July 2007 (CDT)
- Perhaps Tin Stars should be included for Ascender as they are an improvement over the ring of aggravate monster. I didn't even ascend yet and had gotten one. Also, given the ease at which the hipposkin poncho is crafted or purchased, it seems redundent to list the goth kid t-shirt. Especially since the hippo whip is listed under Ascender as well. Any first time ascender not on a hardcore run could easily get one. --Xclockwatcher 06:36, 2 September 2007 (CDT)
- I agree with the poncho, but disagree with the star. Tin stars only dropped on a SSPD adventure, which, if you missed it, you can't get, even if you're a Deity, as they're not tradeable. --Bagatelle 11:16, 2 September 2007 (CDT)
- Many items that aren't tradable are listed in these pages. As long as an item still periodically drops I think it deserves inclusion. So far the Tin Star has dropped on the last two St. Sneaky Pete's Days. Unless it's confirmed that it won't drop again, why shouldn't it be included? --Xclockwatcher 14:05, 3 September 2007 (CDT)
- The only reason that it dropped again was a bug that was in the game, it was supposed to only drop on one SSP day but they forgot to change the code before the next one so it dropped on the second one. --Chunky_boo 15:14, 3 September 2007 (CDT)
- what about vinal shield? +25 ML offhand. someone should add.--Mr Alfredo 00:47, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
- The only reason that it dropped again was a bug that was in the game, it was supposed to only drop on one SSP day but they forgot to change the code before the next one so it dropped on the second one. --Chunky_boo 15:14, 3 September 2007 (CDT)
- Many items that aren't tradable are listed in these pages. As long as an item still periodically drops I think it deserves inclusion. So far the Tin Star has dropped on the last two St. Sneaky Pete's Days. Unless it's confirmed that it won't drop again, why shouldn't it be included? --Xclockwatcher 14:05, 3 September 2007 (CDT)
- I agree with the poncho, but disagree with the star. Tin stars only dropped on a SSPD adventure, which, if you missed it, you can't get, even if you're a Deity, as they're not tradeable. --Bagatelle 11:16, 2 September 2007 (CDT)
Furry Suit effectiveness
Alright, so I know that this is supposed to be a guide to maximizing monster level... but the furry suit makes your moxie go down the crapper... I'm pretty sure that it's loss outweighs the gain...--Ac1983fan 14:34, 10 November 2007 (CST)
Brimstone set
The +ML from multiple brimstone gear -- Is it worth including? --Improv 05:31, 12 December 2007 (CST)
- No. The only time it would be useful is if you have two or more equip slots which cannot be used to to a lack of +ML. And since there are no two spots, then it is not worth it.--Ac1983fan 06:51, 12 December 2007 (CST)
- Oddly enough, the set does give a better result for the Ascender class. Its current configuration gives +57 total over equipment. A full Brimstone set would yield +64 and then one more accessory slot to fill. --Bagatelle 21:30, 12 December 2007 (CST)
- While true, getting a full Brimstone set would probably put one closer to Villa, definitionally... --Improv 19:21, 16 December 2007 (CST)
- Oddly enough, the set does give a better result for the Ascender class. Its current configuration gives +57 total over equipment. A full Brimstone set would yield +64 and then one more accessory slot to fill. --Bagatelle 21:30, 12 December 2007 (CST)
El Vibrato Relics
The possible +100 ML from the outfit when ten 213 holed punchcards are inserted in the helmet seems like it's better than any other thing listed up there. +100 compared to +37 from the deity equipment...--Cuteasawaffle 01:02, 21 February 2008 (CST)
- Here is where we reach a conumdrum, the dressing pages are based on 150 base stat, the relics require 200 to wear so how are we going to fit this into the pages. --Chunky_boo 02:17, 21 February 2008 (CST)
- a "theoretical maximum" only makes sense for stuff that doesn't scale. at level 200 aria adds +400 ML. there has to be a cut-off. 150 main stat (just over level 13) is pretty sensible. since that would mean we'd need three pages, 150 in each stat isn't bad compromise. would raising the bar to 200 change anything else except the ability to wear the relics? since anyone can get them with relatively little effort, even on a first run, they'd have be for each type. hmm. --Evilkolbot 02:20, 28 April 2008 (CDT)
- If you're the type of person who is deliberately raising monster level to very high levels, you're probably powerleveling (or speed ascending). The fact that this page doesn't even mention the relics is doing a disservice to those who are interested in the true maximum. The Relics don't scale, they just have high stat requirements, so there's no reason to make them exempt from this (and all other) equipment listings. Also, I don't fully get what you mean by "we'd need three pages". Three pages for what? --TomTomson 22:56, 28 April 2008 (CDT)
- He means one page for each main stat; "typical off-stats" for each of the main stat types at about level 13 would be used, along with 150 for the main stat. To simplify things, it was simply decided to make 150 the default maximum for all stats. And whether we should include them or not is a question of what we wish to make the purpose of the pages. "Maximizing" is something of an unfortunate misnomer, since we are not actually interested in true maximization at all levels, or even high levels, of play. I again suggest adding a note. Similar notes have been used before to cover the fact that eventually the drywall axe is the better choice of equipment for maximizing stats once you get your stats sufficiently high. This is a similar case. It does not fit within the "vaguely reasonable within the course of an actual softcore run (possibly casual)" sort of rubric I think the pages were meant to handle. --Flargen 00:32, 29 April 2008 (CDT)
- So when all the "high level content" that's been talked about for a few weeks comes out, assuredly with equipment that has superior enchantments to current equipment, what are you all going to do? Put your fingers in your ears and ignore it? I sincerely hope the rule will be changed at that point; people above level 13 play the game, too. I realize the problems inherent in displaying high-level equipment, but why not just classify the outfit as one level higher than it normally would be considered? That is to say, if you were to classify the Relics as "Ascender" level equipment, bump it up into "Villa" to compensate for the high stat requirement. If the difference between Villa and Ascender can be a few million meat, surely it could also be a few levels? --TomTomson 04:47, 1 May 2008 (CDT)
- These pages are based on a standard, so to keep these pages easy there is a standard. If we change it to this level gets these stats what to say that people won't reverse it so that the lower levels get lower stats. Accepting one such change will end up opening up the flood gates for many different changes, get over it there is a standard for a reason. And that reason is to make it easy for people to make edits to the page. --Chunky_boo 15:03, 1 May 2008 (CDT)
- So when all the "high level content" that's been talked about for a few weeks comes out, assuredly with equipment that has superior enchantments to current equipment, what are you all going to do? Put your fingers in your ears and ignore it? I sincerely hope the rule will be changed at that point; people above level 13 play the game, too. I realize the problems inherent in displaying high-level equipment, but why not just classify the outfit as one level higher than it normally would be considered? That is to say, if you were to classify the Relics as "Ascender" level equipment, bump it up into "Villa" to compensate for the high stat requirement. If the difference between Villa and Ascender can be a few million meat, surely it could also be a few levels? --TomTomson 04:47, 1 May 2008 (CDT)
- He means one page for each main stat; "typical off-stats" for each of the main stat types at about level 13 would be used, along with 150 for the main stat. To simplify things, it was simply decided to make 150 the default maximum for all stats. And whether we should include them or not is a question of what we wish to make the purpose of the pages. "Maximizing" is something of an unfortunate misnomer, since we are not actually interested in true maximization at all levels, or even high levels, of play. I again suggest adding a note. Similar notes have been used before to cover the fact that eventually the drywall axe is the better choice of equipment for maximizing stats once you get your stats sufficiently high. This is a similar case. It does not fit within the "vaguely reasonable within the course of an actual softcore run (possibly casual)" sort of rubric I think the pages were meant to handle. --Flargen 00:32, 29 April 2008 (CDT)
- If you're the type of person who is deliberately raising monster level to very high levels, you're probably powerleveling (or speed ascending). The fact that this page doesn't even mention the relics is doing a disservice to those who are interested in the true maximum. The Relics don't scale, they just have high stat requirements, so there's no reason to make them exempt from this (and all other) equipment listings. Also, I don't fully get what you mean by "we'd need three pages". Three pages for what? --TomTomson 22:56, 28 April 2008 (CDT)
Pants - Old Patched suit-pants
Shouldnt the pants be changed to the Old patched suit-pants they give +40 to ML. Id say Villa or possibly ascender. --Noodle appendage 18:00, 5 July 2008 (CDT)
- What player classes to give Hobopolis items to hasn't been determined yet. Try seeing Talk:Dressing For Success#Hobopolis loot. It's pretty much a given that Deity will get access to as many of them as you want. Villa will have at least some, and maybe so will Ascender. But other than that things haven't progressed. Add your thoughts on the talk page and maybe we can get somewhere. --Flargen 18:05, 5 July 2008 (CDT)
- Regardless, these pages are done off the assumption of level 13...you need to be level 15 at least in order to equip anything from Hobopolis. See the extensive discussion over the inclusion of El Vibrato Relics.--Toffile 19:33, 5 July 2008 (CDT)
Mind-Control device, etc.
Why are the Super-Secret Canadian mind-control device, detuned radio, and annoy-o-tron 5000 not included?--Space turtle 16:14, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
Negative Monster Levels
Shouldn't this chart also include the negative monster level modifying things like the Drowsy Sword? --jin 21:24, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
- Hm. This page is for increasing ML...hence "Maximizing". Not decreasing.--Toffile 21:48, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
- You want Monster Level. --Flargen 22:13, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
Maximizing Stat Gains?
I know this section is supposed to be talking about maximizing monster level, but isn't the overall goal of that to maximize your stat gains? If that is the case, then the scratch and sniff sword/crossbow needs to be added with three apples which would be the equivalent of +24 to the monster level. This is much better than the ice sickle. I'm sure there are other instances where this is the case, but this simply came to my mind first. Xeronami--Xeronami 08:01, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
Summary?
- i'm doing some calculations on fasted possible slime runs, and was wondering if this page could get a maximum possible +ML summary? i get +3250 will get you a run by yourself of 109 turns. is this orders of magnitude outside the realms of possibility? --Evilkolbot 11:39, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
- the answer i was searching for is yes. my trusty spreadsheet tells me that a theoretical maximum is 526, and this will only get you 431 turns. with a squeeze, this proves jick's extreme thoughfulness yet again and gives 546 ML and 422 turns. damn he's good. just one more effect that ups ml, though, just one. --Evilkolbot 11:47, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
- bitter pill! bitter pill! the problem is finding someone willing to sell it to you rather than swap it for a hand turkey. *checks mall* --Evilkolbot 16:45, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
- the answer i was searching for is yes. my trusty spreadsheet tells me that a theoretical maximum is 526, and this will only get you 431 turns. with a squeeze, this proves jick's extreme thoughfulness yet again and gives 546 ML and 422 turns. damn he's good. just one more effect that ups ml, though, just one. --Evilkolbot 11:47, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, it's well outside what is feasibly possible. By about 1 order of magnitude in base 2. Going meaningfully faster than 219 isn't feasible with the current state of things. And, yes, things seem to have been remarkably well-designed around available ML boosters. You could just barely squeak into tier 4 without ultra-rares/slime hate/grimacite (although this isn't necessary for nodules). --Flargen 12:52, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
- the problem with Slime Hates You is that you have to have participated in a multi-player run to get it. not everyone's a heart. --Evilkolbot 16:45, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
- Incorrect. Speed rewards for the tube do not require the run be done in a single day. This has been verified at least up through the first nodule, possibly up through the second. It's kind of hard to NOT do a familiar run in one day. But the pattern suggests you could have 1 turn a day played for 230 days and still get your larva. --Flargen 09:42, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
- Oh, I suppose you were probably meaning getting 5 squeezes. It might be a little hard to hit the 580 total ML you need without those. Still, it shouldn't be too hard to round up a couple of people to come and tatter their way to a squeeze. --Flargen 10:34, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
- Incorrect. Speed rewards for the tube do not require the run be done in a single day. This has been verified at least up through the first nodule, possibly up through the second. It's kind of hard to NOT do a familiar run in one day. But the pattern suggests you could have 1 turn a day played for 230 days and still get your larva. --Flargen 09:42, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
- including five squeezes and assuming everyone has 8SHY, i make a maximum of 1586ML, and 206 turns. --Evilkolbot 16:49, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
- You're missing something, then. The Purse Rat maybe? --Flargen 17:03, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
- nope, that's including a 100lb rat. no grimacite, gear, though, but the SHY gear is way more powerful anyway. --Evilkolbot 19:43, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
- Then I take it you read Mojo's forum post where he revealed that 8 slime hates doesn't give you +1200. --Flargen 19:46, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
- nope. damn. --Evilkolbot 20:30, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
- Then you were definitely missing something. Sub-200 has been attempted. Sub-200 has failed. --Flargen 22:04, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
- nope. damn. --Evilkolbot 20:30, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
- Then I take it you read Mojo's forum post where he revealed that 8 slime hates doesn't give you +1200. --Flargen 19:46, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
- nope, that's including a 100lb rat. no grimacite, gear, though, but the SHY gear is way more powerful anyway. --Evilkolbot 19:43, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
- You're missing something, then. The Purse Rat maybe? --Flargen 17:03, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
"Outfit (custom)"
Why is the example "custom" outfit using an untradable-no-longer-dropping item (Uncle Hobo's stocking cap), but not going all out and using the top-of-the-line, tradable, and still dropping hockey stick of furious angry rage? That would be 35 extra (if triple equipped). If there are assumptions for that "outfit" they should be stated in the page, and if there are not, it should be MAXIMIZED. That's what this page is, after all. --Club (#66669) (Talk) 06:24, 31 December 2012 (CET)
- I actually missed that when updating the outfit, whoops. Personally I agree that the "custom" outfit should attempt to show the maximum available without using one of the other already defined outfits, it exists solely as an easier way to compare the relative power of the outfit bonuses. --Melon 10:44, 31 December 2012 (CET)
Smithsness items
Like mentioned earlier in the edit history, I don't think the Hand in Glove deserves such a high placement, since that's not how this item works. Actually getting that much +ML from the glove would require sacrificing other slots that could grant more +ML otherwise. If you are not willing to sacrifice other item slots or food, booze or spleen slots, this item requires constant consumption of Flaskfull of Hollow to keep +30 ML up. Granted: That equals a hockey stick of furious angry rage, but it's not just this item that grants this. We don't list Hobo Power items with X-Y at the very top, just because it's possible to reach those numbers – we list them with X% per Hobo Power and add items that grant Hobo Power in the appropriate places. If you want to show the glory of items which use the Smithsness mechanic, please don't bastardize the table and add all +Smithsness items properly. --Yatsufusa (talk) 04:46, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
This is stupid. The page is called Maximizing Monster Level. We should be putting the items that can effectively maximize your monster level at the top. I would agree if it actually required ML sacrifices in other areas to achieve that, but with flasks you are sacrificing nothing to equal the otherwise-top-ranked item in the list, and any other bonuses further drive it up (and consumable bonuses WILL stack with other consumable bonuses so this too is not sacrificing ML). Further, Flask is extremely effective (150 turns) and min-priced in the mall, making upkeep trivial; the only time that complaint is relevant is for softcore runs for those who don't have Summon Smithsness, and in such a case it is as easy as the reader determining this and moving on to the item lower in the list. On the other hand, putting the HiG near the bottom is in no way helpful to users of this page if they want to maximize their ML and don't already know of the hidden power of the glove. Lastly, then explain to me why Frown Exerciser is third on the list instead of last? --Malurth (talk) 06:25, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
- Like I said: "Please don't bastardize the table and add all +Smithsness items properly." – Which is not stupid at all. I never said to ignore existing useful mechanics, but rather for keeping one kind of standard. That doesn't sound too unreasonable, does it? As for your question about the Frown Exerciser: It grants +0 to +25 ML on its own. Since you added nothing new to the discussion, I'm reverting Hand in Glove back to the page standard. --Yatsufusa (talk) 19:04, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
- The Hand in Glove is the top +ML accessory and deserves to be in the top slot. In actual usage (outside of budgetcore runs), you will almost always be running the Flask and at least 1-2 other bonuses. This makes the Hand in Glove better than the hockey stick, and the table should reflect this. What is this mythical "standard" you claim exists? Where is it documented? Why is adherence to this "standard" that only you know about more beneficial to the reader than putting the best items at the top of their lists? --Greycat (talk) 13:02, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
- reading this and other talk, it seems as though the HiG is the best with maxed smithsness, and in order to get that you have to compromise your outfit elsewhere. or, put another way, having a HiG may give you best in slot, but won't maximise your +ML overall. which is what this page is about AFAICT. --Evilkolbot (talk) 13:11, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
- HiG is tied for the best using only the Flaskfull of Hollow which competes with nothing. It not does require the sacrifice of any slots or organ space. It's a fucking potion. In actual practice you'll be using something beyond the potion which will push the HiG higher than the hockey stick, but even if you don't -- even in the most stupidly played budgetcore run the HiG will at least be tied with the hockey stick. It will not be dead fucking last. Why is blind adherence to some made-up "standard" trumping actual utility? --Greycat (talk) 13:28, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
- rudeness won't get you what you want. trust me, really. if the HiG is tied with the stick with only buffed smithsness, then I would agree that it should be in the table. how do you suggest that it is indicated that the +ML is dependent on smithsness? --Evilkolbot (talk) 17:19, 25 March 2014 (UTC)p
- Maximizing Your Meat Drops has Half a Purse at the top, listed as "2% per Smithsness". How about putting Hand in Glove at the top, listed as "5 per Smithsness"? --Vorzer (talk) 19:07, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
- You mean "1 per Smithsness". However, we already had it listed as "5-85", but Yatsufusa undid it. Twice. Despite the fact that two different people thought it deserved the top spot. It seems he's dead set on not letting us put it up there. --Greycat (talk) 20:26, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
- rudeness won't get you what you want. trust me, really. if the HiG is tied with the stick with only buffed smithsness, then I would agree that it should be in the table. how do you suggest that it is indicated that the +ML is dependent on smithsness? --Evilkolbot (talk) 17:19, 25 March 2014 (UTC)p
- HiG is tied for the best using only the Flaskfull of Hollow which competes with nothing. It not does require the sacrifice of any slots or organ space. It's a fucking potion. In actual practice you'll be using something beyond the potion which will push the HiG higher than the hockey stick, but even if you don't -- even in the most stupidly played budgetcore run the HiG will at least be tied with the hockey stick. It will not be dead fucking last. Why is blind adherence to some made-up "standard" trumping actual utility? --Greycat (talk) 13:28, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
- reading this and other talk, it seems as though the HiG is the best with maxed smithsness, and in order to get that you have to compromise your outfit elsewhere. or, put another way, having a HiG may give you best in slot, but won't maximise your +ML overall. which is what this page is about AFAICT. --Evilkolbot (talk) 13:11, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
- The Hand in Glove is the top +ML accessory and deserves to be in the top slot. In actual usage (outside of budgetcore runs), you will almost always be running the Flask and at least 1-2 other bonuses. This makes the Hand in Glove better than the hockey stick, and the table should reflect this. What is this mythical "standard" you claim exists? Where is it documented? Why is adherence to this "standard" that only you know about more beneficial to the reader than putting the best items at the top of their lists? --Greycat (talk) 13:02, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
I had a rather long break from KoL. Still I'm not fully back now, and my watchlist is 14 screen pages long (it should be even longer, but there seems to be a cap) but I remembered there was an issue and was curious to see if the page was updated in the meantime and picked the page out of the order. Apparently I was not able to communicate my thoughts with words at all, which I regret.
But also, not a single +Smithsness item or buff has been added during the last months which leads me to believe that for some, this was more about disagreeing with me than actually improving the table. Sorry, but I lack appreciation for this kind of debate. If I try to see myself in the place of someone who wants to promote how good the Hand in Glove really is, I would add the items that actually make it that good to the table – and let users decide which of those items they want to use and which they don't.
I don't know what would anyone lead to believe my earlier posts had anything to do with not wanting a particular item on the top place. What I ask for is not to mislabel items. "1 per Smithsness" is both correct and a good idea – "5-85" on the other hand was just confusing and wrong, because that's simply not what that item does on its own, the same way Hodgman's imaginary hamster doesn't increase a player's item drops by "0-120%" on its own. --Yatsufusa (talk) 15:34, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
