Talk:Mother hellseal

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Not sure how her HP scales (if it does), but I just beat her w/2 LTS doing a combined 157. 145 was not enough, though.--Top1214 15:23, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Intact/Ruined Drops

I have managed to get two unslaughtered Seal parts in about 15 fights with Mother Hellseal. I have tried hitting her with hits smaller than 20HP. I have tried killing her with getting the exact amount of HP she starts with. I even spent a whole fight funksling spices and using clobber once or twice. I also tried using a Knob Goblin Auto Blowgun and other ranged weapons. The two I got were using a BRC. I hope others can share their successes so we can figure out how to not ruin the seal parts. zanchvegas 1:13AM 2 February 2010 (EST)

  • I just score two more pieces and both kills were done so with a critical hit. Additionally, she seems to get tougher the more you kill her. zanchvegas 2:13AM 2 February 2010 (EST)
    • Just killed her with a Summer Siesta, giving me an auto-crit hit and it did not give the intact seal part.zanchvegas 2:17AM 2 February 2010 (EST)
  • I seem to be having better luck with low enough combat initiative that she gets the jump on me, but with boosted high enough moxie that she misses me, then one hit killing her. The unbroken pieces seem to be showing up more often. --JRSiebz (☎|§|‡) 06:57, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
    • Happens even more "regularly" when not using a familiar that attacks before I do. So maybe do no other damage to her except kill her. Her jump on me and then her miss is keeping my saucespheres, etc. from attacking. --JRSiebz (☎|§|‡) 07:03, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
    • Yup, getting drops a lot now, you have to "clean kill" her apparently. --JRSiebz (☎|§|‡) 07:05, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
    • How about the elemental damage? Seems to work better without using any?

--Suicide_TVS 08:47, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

I just got an intact brain after dealing 358 sleaze damage with a love song. This worked once out of maybe 30 tries (not exact), so there does seem to be a significant random component to it all.--Tauren warlock 10:11, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

It's damage sources. To get the drop, have one source: Your clubbing. Muscle and Bonus Weapon damage are fine. Elemental damage kills drops. Extra damage from a second weapon kills drops. Familiar damage kills drops. Passive damage kills drops. Pretty sure the same goes for items too. I got a drop every time by LTSing with just a Bad-Ass Club. --Gullwhacker 16:49, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

  • My understanding is the less seperate applications of damage, the better. Simply put, each seperate damage number appearing in combat adds up, and if there are more than two, you don't get a useful item. Also, using combat items appears to break it. What you want is one or two LTSes with no elemental damage added (and no saucesphere/familiar damage in between). When I started using Truncheon + Sandworm with no saucespheres or bonus elemental damage, and just noodle->LTS->LTS, I was getting an intact item every time. As soon as something changed causing it to get hit more times (like elemental damage, saucespheres or my snatch acting on the second LTS), it was all good. --Hippoking 16:58, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
  • This seemed to work for me pretty well. Before I was using weapon of the pastalord + slimeling familiar and getting almost all drops damaged. Just using LTS and a dandy lion (fairywhelp) and every drop was perfect. Also: If you get a "perfect" drop, the monster level doesn't appear to increase. --Bigcalm 20:06, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
  • I'm getting intact drops while using LTS with Frosty's nailbat (+30 cold damage) and with Spooky Demeanor (+10 spooky damage) active. My thought is that elemental damage that is tied to your weapon attacks (the damage from both of these effects are) doesn't adversely effect drops, since the damage is still coming from a single source (the weapon). Just a thought. --Bazo0ka 19:13, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
  • This idiot missed a saucesphere--Top1214 21:11, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
  • Yellow-rayed it with a he-boulder right away, dropped an intact hide. Infer from that what you will. --Flandamnat 23:21, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
  • Vicious Talon Slash appears to damage the items even if it's the only damage source. One might want to check whether this depends on the amount of damage dealt, though - I've found this out as a character with over 700 Muscle. Pineapple of Despair 02:08, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I suspect you may need to CLUB them to guarantee an undamaged part, and to do so as few times as possible. I've been fighting maximum strength mothers with Frosty's outfit and a PRESSIE, a single LTS finishes the mother and if the PRESSIE doesn't attack I always get an undamaged part. If it does, I almost always do not, but occasionally still do. MTPockets 23:29, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I started doing this with bludgeon on-hand, katana offhand, a couple of elemental damage rings and I could summer siesta one-hit them every time. With no attacking familiar or passive damage, that's an intact item/combat. --Hippoking 14:53, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

I can definitively say that you do NOT need to have a club equipped and you can get an undamaged drop with three attacks. I was able to get 3 undamaged drops using a chloroform rag followed by 3 beer bombs, although this somehow stopped working after the 3rd drop.--TurdHerder 17:10, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

  • And I just got a brain by shieldbutting with an obsidian dagger equipped. Did exactly 150 damage, though.--Ryo_Sangnoir 11:17, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

I just got an intact drop even though my goat attacked the seal, so the mechanic is clearly not as listed. --TimRem 14:43, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

I just got an undamaged sinew after Raise Backup Dancer. LizardKing 04:58, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

I just got a damaged sinew after using Lunging Thrust-Smack, with a club equipped. Here is a snapshot--Icon315♕ (☎|♤) 23:25, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Can you get a guaranteed drop if you are using a sword with Iron Palms active, since it counts as a club? --Jimfromtx 10:58, 22 September 2011 (CEST)

I have found that the Mother Hellseal MUST be killed in only 1 or 2 hits. With 3 or more hits, even with all of the damage coming only from a club + buffs, the drops are ruined. This point is not made clear on the page. --Phthorgwurt 04:43, 9 September 2012 (CEST)

  • What buffs did you have on? Remember also that familiar damage will also negate your winnings, as will damage from a secondary source, such as jala or jaba saucespheres; I doubt that round limit was the issue. Argus 06:42, 9 September 2012 (CEST)

It seems that glancing blows may ruin the items - it's been the one consistent feature of 20-ish fights today. --Kashieda 11:16, 3 October 2012 (CEST)

  • This is a known issue (source: Gemelli) --Kashieda 17:21, 3 October 2012 (CEST)
  • Use a two-handed club and thrust-smack -> no glancing. --Kashieda 09:30, 5 October 2012 (CEST)

Zapping

Just discovered that undamaged parts are zappable. Zapped brains into hide twice, sinew into brains once. Needs spading to confirm randomness of the zaps? Seems like they cycle. --RikAstley 15:56, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

It could be interesting to see if they zap like the keys in the lair as well, i.e. if you have 2 out of three do they automagically zap into the third? Probably not though since it's not that hard to get more but anyway... Winterbay 16:24, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
Zapped a hide into a brain today, which refutes the theory. It is probably just random. I successfully zapped two hides into sinews before completing the quest, so it's theoretically possible that a rotation only exists before you finish the quest, but that seems unlikely. Zaps are random. --Lennalf 07:58, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Damage increase mechanism

I killed quite a few now, but now she gets the jump on me and does around 1200 damage. Increase mechanism is really strong, but so is the decrease: (encounters in this order)

  • Round 0: Suicide_TVS loses initiative!

You lose 1,280 hit points

  • Round 0: Suicide_TVS loses initiative!

You lose 1,255 hit points Round 0: Suicide_TVS loses initiative! You lose 885 hit points Round 0: Suicide_TVS loses initiative! You lose 605 hit points Round 0: Suicide_TVS loses initiative! You lose 428 hit points Round 0: Suicide_TVS loses initiative! Round 1: Suicide_TVS attacks! You lose 281 hit points Round 0: Suicide_TVS loses initiative! You lose 185 hit points --Suicide_TVS 08:47, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Maximum level and hellseal pups

The mother hellseals' level appears to cap out after 10 cries from the hellseal pups. At this point, they give ~1600 total substats/fight. Losing to the mother hellseals lowers their level. My preliminary evidence suggests that you can only make hellseal pups cry out 10 times/day, which would mean that losing to the mother hellseal lowers her maximum achievable level for a given day. I admit I have not tried losing to the mother hellseal after having gotten 10 pup cries enough times to see if the pups do in fact come back after some specific number of losses. However, after getting 10 cries and losing to the mothers only a couple of times, I did not encounter pups again. --Bazo0ka 20:22, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

You can regain maximum strength Mothers if you lose to one, pups can call out regardless of how many have done so already. Also, getting a pup to call out via a 4-d camera had no effect on naturally gained max strength Mothers, my substat gain did not increase against the next mother. I think the rate of occurrence may be a simple 10*(calls)% chance to fight a mother, assuming that it takes 10 calls to maximize strength and thus 100% occurrence of mother hellseals. Each loss seems to decrease the "call" counter by one, in my experience. My substat gain is slightly over 1000 substats with a sombrero-type familiar when the mothers are at max strength, no where near 1600.MTPockets 23:29, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I experimented a bit to see if I could "overcharge" the monster level cap by puttying a seal pup. When I got to the ML cap, I used the putty, got the seal pup to call mother hellseal, but the ML did not increase. However, later on I wasn't paying attention and died. The ML did not go down when I died. I'd like to get confirmation from a second player, but it looks like you can "overcharge" the seal pup calls so that if you die, the ML stays intact.zanchvegas 10:12, 22 February 2010 (EST)

Monster Attack information

How much Moxie do you need for no hits? I had mine buffed up to 362, but I still got wasted every time I met up with a Mother... --Drewster 16:03, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

  • It depends entirely on how many times you've made the seal pups cry out. According to Foggy's info below, you may need as much as 3905 moxie if you've maxed out the mother hellseal's power. --Hellion 17:07, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Ay, yi, yi! Why is this quest so difficult? I haven't had nearly the troubles completing any of the other "Nemesis" quests. This is ABSURD! (IMHO)--Drewster 16:57, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

  • This one is could be really hard in HC, but not so difficult if you can access muscle boosting potions. You need to balance the enraged level of the mothers against your maximum HP. These clearly are inspired by monster level boosting for speed ascension strategies. A fully enraged mom is a great source of stats, but you need a lot of muscle to manage the kill. You'll probably also want a two-handed club for guaranteed LTS success. --Club (#66669) (Talk) 18:35, 13 April 2010 (UTC)


(redacted) --Foggy 16:30, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Unbelievable. I spent a fair amount of time yesterday gathering that information. Trying it today, I'm getting no variance in Monster Attack over 10 instances of the monster appearance.

Monster Attacks recorded today: 207, 287, 398, 551, 764, 1058, 1466, 2030, 2812, 3895.--Foggy 16:47, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Does she always get the jump? I'm running 210% init and losing the jump every time. --Shummie 14:58, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

  • Not always, it seems. I managed to get the jump on one after a single cry, and I'm not even +init optimized. --Billybobfred 17:33, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

It looks like Mother Hellseals have an attack equal to floor(150*1.385^(number of cries)). Which is a formula that perfectly matches mother hellseal's observed attack values. We can't putty mother hellseals, so we can't see if their attack can hit 150 (what i'm assuming their base attack is, but can't be encountered at that attack value), or lower than that by losing to the puttied copies. Puttying hellseal pups also doesn't allow you to increase the cries to 15, which would otherwise give hellseals 19853 attack (4963 substat). Boo. I want to break the game :( --RoyalTonberry 08:07, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

  • hmm. jick hates complexity in numbering, so it seems likely that this is a formula that models something far simpler. i wish i were smart enough to see it. of course, he could have given hotstuff his head (fnar fnar) in balancing it all and 18/13 could be it. more spading required, perhaps. what are your tolerances? --Evilkolbot 10:47, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
    • Well, there has been a proliferation of "complex" formulas in the game ever since NS13. Leprechaun and Fairy formulas, for example. I believe Jick has said that the formulas we use (those on the wiki) are not the ones he used, but the leprechaun one in particular cannot be distinguished from any other valid formula in its predictive capacity. There's also the DR formulas for clan dungeon bosses (and a few other monsters). --Flargen 10:59, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Ambiguous wording

"Damage caused by familiars .. Saucespheres, items, poison, Passive Damage, etc, will, with high probability, ruin the quest items." Does items mean combat items or is it including something else here? Should probably be reworded to 'combat items'

Additionally the lines "Must be called by a hellseal pup." and "...further hellseal pup calls (via a 4-d camera or Spooky Putty sheet) have no effect." are in direct conflict; does it only come from combat with a pup, or is there another way to encounter it after it reaches full ML? The way I understand it the first line should say "Can only be encountered by causing a hellseal pup to screech when not at full ML, otherwise appears for 100% of combats." but I'm not 100% sure that's how it works. --SilentKnight 16:26, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

  • The wording isn't ambiguous, IMHO. Here's how it works: Any form of damage not caused by a club will ruin the hellseal drops, though elemental damage is ok so long as it's part of a normal attack. As for the summons... if you putty a pup, then get ML to max (100% Mother combats), then use the puttied/4-d pup, and have the pup cry, it will NOT affect ML. --Erich 16:58, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

So if I have a fully-toothed fossilized necklace equipped +15 Weapon Damage (ok), +15 Hot damage, +15 Spooky damage I assume this is ok? What kind of 'item' damage other than the categories listed exists other than combat items?? And I don't think you see the point I was making about the pups; nowhere on the page nor anywhere else that I'm aware of does it say that the zone becomes 100% mother combats. If in fact the zone has mother hellseal combats without encountering a pup first then the line "Must be called by a hellseal pup." is wrong and confuses the issue. --SilentKnight 17:24, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

  • From this page: "'ML caps after 10 hellseal pups have called and mother hellseals become 100% likely'; further hellseal pup calls (via a 4-d camera or Spooky Putty sheet) have no effect". From pup page: 'In order to fight against your first mother hellseal, at least one pup must emit a wail.' I'm sorry that I'm having a hard time understanding your confusion. The grounds are 100% pups before the first one wails. After 10 wails, it's 100% mothers. +1 wail after the cap, such as that from putty or 4-d camera, doesn't affect the ML.--Erich 18:57, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Currently using a hot-ass club, a full fossilized necklace, Space Trip Safety headphones, and a Llama Lama with a Mayflower bouquet. I Noodle up the mother healseal then hit her with a LTS, and twice out of the last 8 combats, the quest item has been damaged. Is it the elemental damage? The -ML? The stun? --Krendel 15:20, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

  • Those items should not cause damage to the body part. I know it's a month ago, and you're probably not doing it anymore, but I'd bet significant amounts that there was something else doing damage, like a saucesphere or something else responding to an attack before you noodled her when she won init. I haven't personally seen a case where damage was only from my club (and bonus weapon/elemental damage) and the body part ended up being damaged; when I did see something damaged that I thought shouldn't have been, I went back over my logs and invariably there was something that had kicked in and done some damage other than my attack. --Terion 01:56, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Mesmereyes contact lenses

Since Mesmereyes™ contact lenses automatically block the first hit of the combat, you can use them to freely buff the mother hellseals up to 100% and get really great safe XP as long as you can one hit them. --Hermitlobster (talk) 06:55, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Possibly worth noting on the wiki page that Saucespheres, even doing simple physical damage, will absolutely prevent you from ever getting an intact drop. I spent days figuring this out.

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