User talk:Silentbobus

Welcome to TheKolWiki! We hope you will contribute much and well. You will probably want to read the help pages. Again, welcome and have fun! Fig bucket (talk) 23:45, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

Average turns saved per clover

I've reverted your edit to the Clover strategy as I can't reproduce any of your figures. Do you still have the working? Some of my working is below:

• For Guano Junctions, the max turns saved is 16 because you encounter your second screambat on turn 17. There are six monsters, five of which drop at 10% and one at 15%. Ignoring queue and averaging straight, this gives 10.83% drop chance. Modelling as negative binomial, it takes 18.46 turns to get the two sonars we want, which would be 17.46 turns saved, so it's 16. Repeating with triple drop chances gives 6.15 turns to get two sonars, so 5.15 turns saved. None of this is anywhere near your figures.
  • I had modeled the Screambat as a 0% drop monster. So the calculation for this one is wrong. I'll redo it when I have time.
• Smut Orcs drop 1.1 fasteners & lumber on average. Again, forgetting about queue mechanics, this means it would take just under 6 turns normally to get the fasteners and lumber that you get from this adventure, which is a lot more than the 2.9 saving you got. Were you factoring in the keepsake box somehow, or lovebugs?
  • I modeled the keepsake box as containing 5 lumber, 5 fasteners and then averaged that out over the turns it takes to get it. Not exact, but a reasonable approximation. I did not factor in lovebugs, the loadstone or logging hatchet.
• When going for the lowercase n, there are 8 monsters in the 100% combat zone, so on average it'll be more than 4 adventures before you even see one, and at 200% item drop the n is a 90% drop so you might not even get it, so I don't see how it can save 4 turns on average.
  • It takes 4.5 adventures on average to get a shot at the n, then a 90% drop rate at +200% pushes that to 5 adventures. You use up one adventure with the clover, which means you've saved 4.
  • Regardless I do not feel you should have reverted the changes, having this column is important so people can see the relative usefulness of clovers. If you ascend quickly with a high number of ascensions you are only getting 1-2 clovers per day so you won't get to use them for every adventure in this list. I have unreverted the changes and added a disclaimer that the figures are not exact.
• --Ryo_Sangnoir (talk) 20:00, 18 January 2017 (UTC)

Apologies on the lowercase n: I estimated without the queue, but it does indeed make a large difference. Some more points:

• Mine: I assume it would take less turns if you ran Slimeling and -combat? If you modeled everything with no bonuses I'd feel less leery about this, but only 0% item vs 200% item doesn't really represent how the game is played (quickly). There's also Deck cheats currently in standard for ore.
• A-Boo Peak: The standard way to do this is to get 3 maps and spend four turns in combats. If you can get all the maps you need in the four combats you don't need to clover. Even if you don't, at slightly more than 200% item drop bonus you'd only need to farm an average of one more map, not the two the clover adventure gives.
• Oasis: if you're going for the stone rose, turns spent getting ultrahydrated burn delay, so this adventure saves 0 turns and wastes a clover. If you're not going for the rose fair enough.
• Castle Basement: if you're using stench jelly to skip to the noncombat, you might not get a D. If you have mad luck in the Neck you might not get a W. I guess you can't really model these things in the turns saved bit, but some strategic decisions or luck could mean it's a better choice than it otherwise would be.
  • I played KoL primarily in 2006, and am just getting back into it now. Which is why I wanted a relative value column to show which Clover Adventures are the most important. The reason I picked 0% item drop vs %200 item drop as the turn variability is that I purchased a trick-Or-Treating Tot, which adds +150%, which when combined with a passive %20, Phat Loot %20 and +% item combines to roughly 200%. Certainly there are other factors (I had forgotten about delay()) You are welcome to revise the lower and upper ranges for each quest, but NOT to delete the column, it is important for people to know that the relative values for those adventures is not equal. For me the difficulty is that I can't use the Trick-Or-Treating Tot as a Fairy until ItznotyoursItsMine is complete, and that it only works if you have the full 3 clovers. So I blew a ton of turns doing it. Had I just saved my early clovers and used them on that and not the Bat Hole I would have been better off. I could have just done the Bat Hole later, once I'd gotten the +item Tot Costume. Which is why this page without the column is problematic.
    • You can get the ninja costume from the demoninja in the Elbow.
    • Your comment here isn't about where to use clovers to save the most turns, it's about quest ordering. Even if clovering the Bat Hole saved 20 more turns than clovering the mine, you'd want to put your early clovers towards the mine so you could have a consistent fairy, because doing the Bat Hole early doesn't open up anything extra for you. You always have the option of just not spending turns on a particular day, if you don't have enough clovers to do a quest effectively.
    • In a 2-day run you get at least 3 clovers, probably 4 because you'd rather start on a 2-clover day, and you can get another from the Barrels for 1 adventure if you have the barrel shrine and I think two otherwise? This is enough for the bat hole, the castle, and three ores. If your run takes longer than two days you get even more clovers. --Ryo_Sangnoir (talk) 17:14, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
• --Ryo_Sangnoir (talk) 19:17, 19 January 2017 (UTC)