Talk:Moons

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Revision as of 04:11, 11 June 2006 by imported>Ark42

How can we put that these are the only combonation of moons, no double full, or anything not shown? And do it with a nice deminer?--Fly boy42 21:47, 16 March 2006 (CST)

Grimace's observatory text implies that this is the start of a new event/story:

One of the astronomers nods, smiling. "I see you've found Grimace, one of our two moons. Due to its influence on magical energy, ancient scholars called it Magicus Gluteus, or 'The Wizard's Moon'. They also predicted that some sort of terrible catastrophe would befall it..." He turns to look at a calendar. "Well, any day now, actually. But naturally that's a load of rubbish. What could possibly happen?"

In this light I think we should have seperate pages for Ronald and Grimace and each one's unique history (as well as observatory images). --NewZorkBat 11:50, 15 May 2006 (CDT)

How does the orbit of Hamburgler even make sense? Given that Ronald orbits at twice the rate of Grimace, it isn't possible that Hamburgler could establish a stable orbit around both moons. Someone with a better understanding of orbital mechanics should address this.--AhabTRuler 11:44, 7 June 2006 (CDT)

A comet seen in the moons "bar" area

As of 7:45AM Eastern Time on Friday, May 26th (Petember 3rd), I saw a comet in the same "bar" area as the moons (next to the Asymmetric Publications copyright notice). I think this represents that in a few days (best guess) one or both moons will be struck by this comet and have their behavior altered, as I think was suggested in a J&S discussion. The comet itself is linked to the Observatory, so this discussion could be moved to that page as well. - Eevle (#76998)

The comet's effect on moon patterns

As of June 3rd, a comet has struck Grimace, leaving a small hole. This may have caused the patterns of Grimace to change. We need someone to see if the stat days have been affected. If not, please tell me, so I can remove the needs work bar. --StrongbadfanEX 08:25, 3 June 2006 (CDT)

  • What we know:
    1. Currently, Temporary Lycanthropy gives -50%. That means that with the moons being as they are today, it counts the same as if it was . The white section with the black hole counts as a black section. The black sections with white holes probably count as white sections. Presumably the Talisman of Baio and the Jekyllin hide belt are similarly affected.
  • What we won't know without further information (and will be mostly revealed in time if we just watch the sky):
    1. Whether Grimace's phases happen at a different speed now.
    2. How and when becomes .
    3. Whether the hole is actually a hole in Grimace, or a piece of the comet orbiting it. It is infact a moonlet due to grimace of june 4.
    4. Whether Grimace== counts as a Muscle day rather than .
    5. If #4 is yes, how this affects Moxie days.
  • My gueses are: "No", "Some pattern that doesn't line up with the months (like every 3/5 days, or something)", "Piece of the comet", "Yes", and "Something complicated", respectively. Having #2 not line up with the months will make stat days reasonably complex, without making Grimace have irregular phases (there are still only 8 images for it to go through, so to be regular it would still need a multiple of 8 days in its cycle... otherwise it would be like "2 days on this phase, then 1 on that phase..." which would just be bad... I'm pretty sure Jick said he wanted to avoid this, on the radio show when they were brainstorming about it). Phlip 08:42, 3 June 2006 (CDT)

Well, if Grimace hasen't been thrown off phase, the new table would look something like the one below. I'm posting it to see if it helps to visualize. I got rid of "resting" - assume it works as usual on stat days. (Speaking of stat days - today really seems like it should be a moxie day, doesn't it?) This table is just for visualization right now - we can add values later if it turns out to be useful. I wanted to compress it, so I used some abbreviations. bef=before and aft=after. Lycan=Temporary Lycanthropy. Baio=Talisman of Baio. Jek=Jekyllin Hide Belt. --LucySpace 16:44, 3 June 2006 (CDT)

Table of the Moons

Okay, I changed the table to reflect the normal moon phases. We can update them later or change them around according to the minimoon. --LucySpace 00:50, 4 June 2006 (CDT)

I updated the table to include kublai's 11x16 hypothesis (as described below by dentarthurdent) because it seems to be the best one going. I've put in hypothesized values for statdays, wereseal, and lightness, but not grue, baio or jekyllyn--DirkDiggler 01:35, 8 June 2006 (CDT)

Ok, I'm confused; I thaught that on the 5th, the minimoon was nearer to Grimace. According to the 11x16 theory that is where it was, but on this table, someone changed it to be right in the center. Could someone change that back to reflect how the moons actually were? --Deadgoat 13:07, 8 June 2006 (CDT)

Yeah that was me. I've fixed it for the future days too now, but there's no way to do it without having the moon alignment dance in the column -- sometimes there are two things between the moons, and sometimes there is one. Is there a missing graphic we haven't seen yet? Also, this is nitpicky but it would make the layout of the above table neater if we called the minimoon drawings "minimoon0" (no minimoon), "minimoon1" (white), and "minimoon2" (black); but I'm not smart enough to fix that or convinced that it's worth the trouble. Also Also, this page is about due for a cleanup. --DirkDiggler 20:17, 8 June 2006 (CDT)

Moved table to main page. --DirkDiggler 10:15, 9 June 2006 (CDT)

Speculation

Below I've put my new predictions for the moons. I assumed an elliptical orbit with Ronald and Grimace as foci. If you think otherwise, please post new predictions. The big problem with my predictions is that it does not include predictions on when the minimoon appears on the outside edge of the moon. That bothers me. --LucySpace 01:19, 4 June 2006 (CDT)

Ronald Grimace

I think what will happen is that the moon will have an orbit going back and forth, but turning white to black every so often. I think seeing how the next two days work will make a lot of this confusion clear. Otherwise the minimoon.gif (which is a white mini moon) becomes useless. and I was making this table on my own, but I'll just help with this one now. Much easier for me.

Also, I've a pic of the moons before rollover when the comet hit. They looked like this: What it looks to me is that the moon will move across the moons, and perhaps moving from Ronald to Grimace changes its color. Picture is on Noodlebandit's wordpress page if you want to go see it yourself. --Ashallond 09:09, 4 June 2006 (CDT)


So the thing we need to remember is that these are orbiting moons, not rotating objects next to one another. Hamburglar is orbiting Grimace. Not Ronald and Grimace. I'm currently working out images to show the positions of the moons around whatever planet the Kingdom is on, and will see where that takes me, given the images of the moons with Hamburglar from the last couple days. --Shaft1986 (signature pending)

  • Fantastic, Ashallond! I added it to the table. Thanks for the heads up. Hm, you think it might change color when changing moons? I just assumed it did that because either it was a drawing and we wouldn't be able to see it if it was black on black or because celestial objects look light when viewed alone but look dark when eclipsing a bigger object with greater luminosity. The next few days will be interesting. --LucySpace 14:31, 4 June 2006 (CDT)


  • Possibly. but there is a version of each phase with a white and black moon in front of it, so I think it might be a rotation around *off to the right and then back from the left or right, weaves left then back right like some oscillation* but every time that it goes from Ronald to grimace it might change. tomorrow will tell me a lot about what I think the attern will be, but I doubt that the third moon will ever be off the baord. --Ashallond 16:20, 4 June 2006 (CDT)
    • That's an interesting theory. I really hope there's no weird retrograde motion. You don't think Hamburglar will ever disappear behind the moons? --LucySpace 17:54, 4 June 2006 (CDT)
    • Possibly. I can see an oscillation pattern or a loop around (front and behind) both moons in my head. I really need to see where the moonlet goes for a day or two more. once we get enough data points to extrapolate the pattern, we can knock this thing out fairly quickly. **EDIT** um...never mind this one just threw me for a loop. --Ashallond 22:56, 4 June 2006 (CDT)
  • Well, with today's info narrows everything down about the moons from a given position, save stat days...
    • Count one for each quarter of each moon's surface that's white (like we used to).
    • Subtract one if a black Hamburglar is occluding a white piece of larger moon (but not if it's just a black Hamburglar elsewere).
    • Add one for a white Hamburglar, either in front of a black piece (probably) or elsewhere.
    • Take the total to be out of 8.
  • Which makes sense, since the effects are basically based on the amount of light we get from the moons... now we just need to know their exact movements, their effects on the stat days, and what determines whether Hamburglar's lit when it's not over a moon. Phlip 23:37, 4 June 2006 (CDT)
      • Who on earth named the little moonlet hamburglar?--SomeStranger (T | C) 12:56, 5 June 2006 (CDT)
        • Riff said [here] that the dev team had taken to calling it Hamburglar. --DataVortex 13:20, 5 June 2006 (CDT)
          • um, ronald and grimace are pre-existing terms, but hamburglar is a coinage. those evil arch people will surely slap some C&D's on our very sorry arses if we insist on using this. we're no morgan spurlock. --Evilkolbot 13:29, 5 June 2006 (CDT)
            • Haha, I get it!--Ronald McDonald, Grimace(The purple blob guy), and Hamburglar. It took me a while to figure it out. But I dont think therell be any legal problems, since we are not portraying the Hamburglar negatively nor using it to advertising our item. In fact, our use of the name could be considered free advertising for Mickey-Dees.

--PhantomTrogdor 20:52, 8 June 2006 (CDT)

Updated the baio info for today. J&S said last night they need to come up with a generic name that still fits in the theme, but not a copyrighted name. We also need to sort out the pattern of the moonlet. --Ashallond 13:29, 5 June 2006 (CDT)

  • Why, in the big chart, does the first day have a picture of Ronald with a white version of the moonlet. I don't seem to remember it being there.--SomeStranger (T | C) 16:15, 6 June 2006 (CDT)
    • It appeared after the emergency maintenance but before the nightly maintenance. Perhaps you didn't log in during that time? Here is a screenshot. See above where Ashallond mentions, "Also, I've a pic of the moons before rollover when the comet hit." --LucySpace 16:56, 6 June 2006 (CDT)
      • I see now, I wonder why it changed...--SomeStranger (T | C) 18:23, 6 June 2006 (CDT)
  • I think the mini moon has 16 possible positions, but moves 3 spaces at once. There are 8 spots infront of the big moons, and 8 spots behind the big moons. 4 of the 8 "behind" locations will show through, because they are on the sides of the moon. The entire cycle of the minimoon would repeat every 16 days, leaving many of the possible images unused though. --Ark42
  • Possible. I'm of a theory that it's a 12 day cycle. If a 16 day cycle was used it would mirror with Grimace, not giving the variety that Jick wanted to redo the moons. 12 gives some interesting combo opportunities with 8,12,16 having tons of common multiples. Anyway, on another note. I'm starting to suspect that the moonlet phase pattern is two days white, two days black, two days white, etc. Baio info for today updated. --Ashallond 23:43, 6 June 2006 (CDT)
  • What makes you think it looks like a 12 day cycle? I would hope actually that it ends up being something which doesn't have a nice multiple of 16, so that it plays out a much longer total moon cycle, but the only pattern I can see in the known positions is 16 spots where it moves 3 spots at once. A 12-day cycle would seem to me that it should have only 1 position between Ronald and Grimace instead of 2 positions in my 16-day idea, and also only have 1 position at each far endpoint where it turns around instead of 2 seeminly overlapping positions where it just moves from "in-front" to "behind". That 12-day idea would have worked if the minimoon moves 2 places per day, up until the Mysticality stat day, but the minimoon would have to have been hidden behind the left side of Grimace, and it wasn't. I see no pattern in the dark/bright part of the minimoon though, unless you just say it is dark when on the far left or right, and bright when it is between the two moons, and inverted of the moon behind it when it overlaps. --Ark42
  • It seems like it would be best if there were a table of the observed moons with a date for every day since the collision. That way anyone who came to this page would know for sure what's gone before so that new-comers can follow the discussion and add worthwhile theories instead of just reading what other people think might happen. I'd do it, but I don't have a reliable enough list. If anyone else does it, please just delete this. --Kilor
  • Er.. so you want to add dates? Okay, I can add dates to the big table. --LucySpace 14:06, 7 June 2006 (CDT)
  • Thanks. I think it helps. --Kilor
  • I think the minimoon has 11 positions in its orbit, like so:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y281/SGdentarthurdent/moons.gif

where R is in front of Ronald, G in front of Grimace, and X is where the minimoon is not visible. It moves forward 2 positions each day; that's why it went from R to G without stopping in between. It also explains why the minimoon was hidden behind Ronald, but didn't hide behind Grimace. This odd-numbered cycle will make the moon phases very irregular; it will take 16x11 = 176 days for the complete cycle to repeat. —Dentarthurdent(T,C) 15:48, 7 June 2006 (CDT)

    • That's ridiculous. It's not even funny.
  • I've been keeping track of moon phases and the effects they've had on stat potions and bloodys mary since yesterday. This will hopefully allow someone to focus their theories on the new effects of Ronald, Grimace, and Hamburglar.

Moon Phases Experiment Chart

I'll keep this going until a full cycle has passed.

--Snap E Tom 20:40, 7 June 2006 (CDT)

  • Hmm... So this time the minimoon on its own and lit gave +2 thingies, but last time it gave +1... maybe it's more because it's in front of the moons this time? Oh, and I like your theory, Dentarthurdent... it certainly fits so far. Phlip 23:26, 7 June 2006 (CDT)
  • Okay, this guy explained it a bit better. As far as the color goes: it seems that when the mini-moon is in the front-center position, it's white; when it's in the rear or side positions, it's black; and when it's in front of a moon, it's the opposite of that quarter of that moon.
    • Actually, he's saying that it's white when between moons, not just front and center. He's only saying that it's black at the sides; in the rear it's either hidden or white. This way actually agrees with the pic of the suggested eleven minimoon positions above and with the observed phases. Your summary actually contradicts the chart for 06/05/2006 (Calvember 5), where the eleven positions theory places the minimoon behind the moons and nearer Grimace, but not blocked by it.

As you pointed out, Phlip, the front-center position gives +2 to light, instead of +1. That means we'll eventually have a +8 day, with +100% wereseal, like so: —Dentarthurdent(T,C) 23:42, 7 June 2006 (CDT)

    • There's also the two myst days, and . The first will happen on 24 August, 2006 (Bor 5, 75 days from today), by my calculations. Phlip 00:38, 10 June 2006 (CDT)
  • Is someone going to fix the mushroom growing page for the gloomy black mushroom once this is figured out?
  • If we also extrapolate that when a large moon blocks the moonlet, that it acts as a +2 dark, then it explains the anomolous grue attacking

on June 6th.--Ashallond 19:52, 8 June 2006 (CDT)

  • I think the light value from the moonlet is +1 when it is white (except for the +2 in the front center position), 0 when it is on the far sides, and -1 when it is dark and blocks a white piece of Ronald or Grimace. The Grue must have been changed to attack on light ranging from 0 to 5, instead of the old 0 to 4, to makeup for the additional light that happens on a lot of days now, just to prevent the Grue from being too useless now. --Ark42 *EDIT* Here is a prediction based on the 11-day cycle theory, which will create a full 176-day cycle between all of the moons - http://ark42.com/kol/moon.php
  • On the radio Xeno just said that a full cycle was "about half a year". He intentionally didn't state the exact length (for fear of reverse-engineering) but this is consistant with the 16x11 theory. Phlip 00:10, 9 June 2006 (CDT)

Sweet! I've moved this table (with disclaimers) to the front page, and created a "Moons (before the Comet)" page for the old content. (Also, I added links to Phlip's preceding comment) --DirkDiggler 02:03, 9 June 2006 (CDT)

  • If TPTB install the ParserFunctions extension, per my suggestion on Discussion#Since we are changing things around anyways...., I've written a collection of templates that will generate the moon table for 16 days, centred on today (well, 5 days before and 10 days after). So it will have enough for planning ahead (including a full cycle of stat days) without having to draw up a table with 176 rows. It uses a lot {{#expr}} and {{#switch}} to generate it all though, so I'll have to wait until the ParserFunctions are installed to set it up. I'll be able to rewrite {{moons}} with it too, so that custom extension won't need to be updated. Phlip 22:11, 9 June 2006 (CDT)
  • Check out here, I've graphed out the progression of "Lightness" throughout the 176-day pattern (day 1 being the first of June - conveniently the first phase of both Ronald and Grimace, and the first position of the mini-moon). Phlip 01:31, 10 June 2006 (CDT)
  • Well based on today's moons, I would say the minimoon color is based on the left or right edges of Ronald and Grimace, depending on which it is closest to. When it is in the front center position, it takes on the value of both edges, and in the case of Carlvember 8, this lets it get 2x light value. --Ark42
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