Talk:Combat Initiative

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The little round pebble needs to be added to the list. --Hoboapple 12:56, 1 September 2008 (CDT)

This article is missing one very important thing-- an explanation of what initiative actually does. I can extrapolate from the first section, but shouldn't the purpose of initiative be the very first thing in the article? Kantania 19:49, 25 January 2007 (CST)

I believe the current formula is correct (or very close). Hence, it's probably time to start testing it on other monsters. If anyone wants to help, check the linked thread on the HCO forums.

what about the toy jetpack?--Warjunkie 09:11, 22 December 2006 (CST)

what about the hors d'oeuvre tray?--Bostonvaulter 19:53, 12 January 2007 (CST)

I've updated several items in this list. Here is an explanation of how I came to these conclusions. Cheers! —Dentarthurdent(T,C) 03:05, 2 March 2007 (CST)

Erm... The links to the hardcoreoxygenation place don't work. Have they moved or gone kaput? And is there somewhere else that monster init values might be found? --LegendaryBard 01:14, 21 May 2007 (CDT)

  • They popped up on a new domain name after a recent outage. I have updated the above link. --Jonrock 01:51, 21 May 2007 (CDT)

Three-handed

Is there an initiave penalty for any other three-handed weapon (e.g. ridiculously huge sword)? --Volante 11:21, 16 August 2006 (CDT)

I think the three-handed weapon would say so if it did. It looks to me that combat initiative is straight forward when it comes to items. I mean, every item that has an initiative modifier says so explicitly. -Holler 12:11, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

Cunctatitis

According to the Cunctatitis page, the effect remvoes ALL combat intiative, not just 100%. A player with 260% combat initiative had dire bunnies get the jump out of him 9 out of 9 times, and failed all 30 run away attempts for each of these nine times.--Wildfire393 19:51, 20 April 2007 (CDT)

Is this really understood?

"The detailed mechanics of Combat Initiative are only now becoming fully understood."

If this is really understood, will someone please write an undertandable summary of what this does?

If not, could we reword this to, "The detailed mechanics of Combat Initiative are not fully understood." Swampthings 16:52, 24 January 2008 (CST)

There are definitely things still not understood. Or they've changed and things have not been updated. In particular, most monsters (even in popular zones) do not have initiative values on the wiki, only in a 2-year-old HCO forum thread, and I doubt some of the values are still correct. I have been leveling in the ballroom with full brimstone (including +50% initiative from the boxers and +64 ML from the outfit), hipposkin poncho (+10 ML), spring fusilli (+40% initiative), overdeveloped... (+20% initiative), aria (+36 ML at my current level 18), and detuned radio at 10, and no other effects known to modify initiative or monster level except for the little box of fireworks, which is tossing M-##s for damage 100% of the time and never doing the initiative or monster level effects. I should have +110% initiative, about +70% since my mainstat is 300 and the monster level is around 230, and -110% from the non-radio ML boosts, for a net +70%. Since the monsters supposedly have 0 base initiative, I should have 170% chance of gaining initiative (so I should get it all the time, even if some numbers are a little bit off). In fact, I am always getting the jump on the platters but never on the skeletons or waltzers. Unless something has changed in the formula, these monsters must have had very high boosts in their base initiative. --Devjoe 23:13, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

According to the devs (Hellion): "Extra ML" has a nonlinear effect on monster initiative. => current formula is incorrect--NightBird 21:17, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Running/Jumping Discrepancy

The initiative values Larryboy's been getting have been consistently 5 lower than the listed values. I recall something like this coming up a while back with beanbats and fluffy bunnies. Could there be an extra +/- 5 somewhere in the equation that hasn't been noticed before? --TechSmurf 21:45, 12 August 2008 (CDT)

  • Are you using the HCO guide as a base? I don't know if it's been updated since NS13. I think the ±5 difference you're mentioning was noted at User talk:Foggy#Initiative Spading. At first glance, the method Larryboy's using seems OK against what's known about Run Away, assuming he's doing a lot of reps. But maybe we should be more aggressive leaving such work to the spading clans. --Bagatelle 22:31, 12 August 2008 (CDT)
    • I'm using nothing as a base except my infrequent glancing at the recent changes page these past few days-- I kept nothing the values he had were off by 5. --TechSmurf 22:32, 12 August 2008 (CDT)
      • I did some of my own testing on bunnies during NS13. They seem to have a 45% chance of getting the jump on a player when checking getting the jump directly, while foggy's "running away" testing showed they have an initiative of 50%. Personally, I don't think this theory has been finished.-QuantumNightmare 00:27, 13 August 2008 (CDT)

Necroing this topic. Looking back over what's on my talk page, Spading page, etc., I think I never made it clear that the PoNE wasn't definitely the monster's initiative. Indeed, what I'm finding is that the PoNE and initiatives from the HCO guide were often 5 off (a monster with initiative 45 had a PoNE of 50). This makes some sense if the code has ties go to the player.

My theory is that the Monster's PoNE = Monster Initiative + 5. This has been shown for the fluffy bunny. If we can show this for a certain number of other creatures (about 10) from different locations in the kingdom, I think we can start using PoNE as a way to ascertain initiative.

(I should note that PoNE was used previously to determine Initiative Effects, all of which later turned out to be accurate.)

For now, I'm going to go back to posting PoNE's on Run Away for the time being.--Foggy 17:18, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

That Pesky Penalty, and other changes

On the KoLSpading forum, we've been able to ascertain more about the penalty for running +ML. In addition, we discovered that there appears to have been an erroneously high penalty in the code, which has since been fixed. The other changes were intended to:

  • More cleanly explain what initiative actually is
  • Reduce redundancy.

There's still more information needed, but this should help answer a lot of questions. --Foggy 14:17, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

effects of negative % bonus to initiative

I am getting the jump on monsters while running a total of -136% initiative. I assume the calculation must factor in bonus initiative as whole value instead of % value and that base initiative must be allowed to go over 100% before bonuses to initiative. I hope that make sense. --Uzziah 02:30, 29 June 2011 (CEST)

Results contrary to formula

With Springy Fusilli (+40% initiative) running and no other effects, no -initiative from any equipment, +5ML from equipment, and in BHY (giving an additional +12ML for a total of +17ML), I lost initiative to a serialbus, which apparently only has an initiative of 35%. According to this page, +17ML should not give me any penalty to initiative so I *should* have 100% chance of gaining initiative, according to the formula, yet it managed to get the jump on me. --unsigned

  • A serialbus has an initiative of 50.-Foggy (talk) 18:24, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Under The Vole, with Soles of Glass and a 6lb Oily woim, I had +52% initiative. I rain-man'd Bram the Stoker on turn 0, and lost the jump. The formula says I should have 100% chance to get the jump. I didn't have an MCD on, and water level was 1, for +10ML. My familiar was equipped with the life preserver. My mainstat was very low (29), but that's not supposed to have an effect according to the formula. --Sausssage (talk) 22:39, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

  • What was the monster's attack? If it was 28, for example, you would have +1% initiative because max(0, 29-28) is 1. — Cool12309 (talk) 00:29, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
    • See below. It's sounding like there is a heretofore unknown initiative penalty in Heavy Rains.-Foggy (talk) 18:24, 12 October 2014 (UTC)


One more data point: I'm in Heavy Rains fighting in The Laugh Floor, running Springy Fusilli(+40%), Fishy, Oily(+60%), Level 3 Angel Hair Wisp(+15%) and wielding Pasta of Peril(+15%).I am not running any +ML apart from the 40 from the water level which acording to the formula gives -20% initiative. And encontering the CH Imp, which has only 60 initiative, not enough to get the jump acording to the formula, it gets the jump on me and murders my poor myst class bones. I can get the jump on it but only sometimes.--Tombsice (talk) 16:29, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

  • What was the CH Imp's adjusted monster level, and your main stat? Also, why is it assumed that the formula is wrong, and there is not a penalty to initiative in Heavy Rains, which would be the more likely cause? If you can replicate this outside of Heavy Rains, then it would be worth reexamining the formula.-Foggy (talk) 18:24, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

QWOPed Up

It says accessory -- how? It's an effect from a food from a back item. — Cool12309 (talk) 00:25, 28 January 2013 (CET)

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