Talk:Dwarven Factory Complex Puzzle

From A KoL Wiki

LEARNING the DIGIT RUNES:

I really need someone to clarify the method put forth on in this walkthrough. I cannot for the life of me figure out the second example, even when using my own similar runes/numbers.

I'm referring to the line "but we had to borrow that one from the 7's column in order to subtract G from H in the 1's column." I understand base7 numbers, so I know what the 7's column is, but what I don't understand is why we are subtracting G from H at all! G > H, so we should be subtracting H from G, right? Why is it the other way around in here? HG-BH=5, so can someone explain why this means H=B+1? There are many assumptions in here that I don't understand at all.


  • Poochy's Dwarven Dice formula does not specify in which order the calculations are done. It could be one of two ways:
1. 7*1st value + 2nd
2. 7*(1st + 2nd)
Which one is it? TheNachomancer 09:18, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
EDIT: CAPS LOCK DOES NOT FULLY EXPRESS MY RAGE. >=(
I can pretty much confirm that it's formula 2. Example, they rolled a (1,4) for 14. I rolled a (4,2). I was paid out 133 meat. 133 divided by 7 is 19, Converting 14 to base10 gives 11, 42 gives me 30. Subtracting 11 from 30 yields 19, which would be the difference between 14 and 42 in base 7.--DJ RBK 12:13, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
Formula 2? Mine was formula 1 for me...and it worked...
EDIT: Just to note I didn't need to convert to base 7 for the dice.--Jewel12345 12:23, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
yeah, me either. just treated them as two digits from 0-6 and looked at enough rolls that I could put them in order by looking at winners (without doing the math to understand the amounts of meat won and lost). that might be an easier explanation, in case some people's heads explode. :) -acm
Right, right. Sorry about that. The one that treats the die roll as percentile dice, not as 2d7. (It's tired and I'm late) --DJ RBK 14:26, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
  • also, since we're quibbling, "The rune on the set of gauges refers to the set of gauges" means less than you had, perhaps, intended. what did you intend? --Evilkolbot 11:40, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
    • As far as I know, that serves no purpose. It just tells you which rune represents the gauges. The rune on the right of the laminated cards just means the gauges. --Jewel12345 12:25, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
      • The rune may serve no purpose, but neither does the sentence Evilkolbot was questioning. While the sentence is grammatically and syntactically correct, it has no more meaning than the statement "The dog is a kind of dog". In other words, it doesn't actually say anything. I also have no idea what was intended. --RogerMexico 00:21, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Helpful if your brain is starting to fry a little: http://www.unitconversion.org/numbers/base-7-to-base-10-conversion.html --istara 11:38, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

  • I think the "unused" rune word (on the laminated cards, and gauge machine) probably determines the entire rune mapping for the current character/ascension. I would assume that it changes with ascension and that two characters whose laminated card rune words match, will have the exact same mappings for the digit and word runes. I have two characters. One has Rune Word K, the other Rune Word R on the laminated cards. Does anyone want to compare notes? I can post them here or via kmail if anyone's interested. (IGN: Subpoena)

--Dawdawdo 23:40, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Are they the same for everyone? Because i am super confuzed. If they aren't the same can someone right a step by step walkthrough because i'm probably not the only one having problems from this one. --Darkmagicpi 02:27, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

I typed up a walkthrough of the Dormitory on the forums. If you guys want to use it, it's right here]. --Wavedash 03:12, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

There's also one on the wiki over here. --Sparksol (t|c) 03:58, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

A quick and pretty painless way of solving the number game is to play, noting three cases (for reference, call them d1 and d2 for the dwarf rolls, and y1 and y2 for yours, and x for outcome): 

Case when:
- d1 and y1 differ: note which one is greater than the other,
- d1 and y1 are the same, and d2 and y2 differ: note which of d2 and y2 differ,
- either (d1 and 2d) or (y1 and y2) are the same: note the outcome, potentially 
  exposes the zero value.

You'll soon be able to chain the truth values. For instance, you'll start coming up with "A > D, C > D, D > G, A > C" sort of connections, leading to the conclusion A > C > D > G. In the case of d1 and y1 being the same, +/-d2 +/-y2 = x/7 (+/- depending on who won), giving you how much they differ - this may or may not save some time in solving the truth conditions. For instance, if you know that A > J by 4, you could extend the above example to A > C > D > G > J. Continue this until you have causal links for all values (or at least, all values you need).

Snugglypoo 16:40, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

This walkthrough, courtesy of rikitikitavi, is very in-depth, and uses no base-7 conversion. I'm not sure whether to change page or not. --blazingthunder 23:27, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes it does the conversion, it just disguises it.--Toffile 01:36, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
    • I wouldn't call it "in-depth." it explains very little actually. it was meant to be for those who didn't want to think at all. and to be clear, the quest invariably contains base-7 math and the walkthrough contains steps that convert base-7 numbers to decimal. but the walkthrough requires no understanding from the user of base-7 math nor any knowledge of number systems in general beyond decimal.--Rikitikitavi 15:24, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
If I'm not mistaken there's another shortcut to information before you start on the dice-rolling game - on the parchment/paper/document, the first digit of every pair appears to always be 2 or 3, so that gets you two numbers almost determined before you start on the randoms (possibly entirely determined, since a 2 might match the first digit of three-digit laminated numbers). Certainly those numbers have been 2 or 3 on all 24 numbers I've seen. --RavenBlack 22:34, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

GM Request

so what are the odds of someone making a script/add on for solving this thing?.--Blood panther 02:50, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

  • probability? so close to 1 no one will give you odds. --Evilkolbot 11:38, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
    • I put one up on the wiki yesterday already. Its not super helpful (yet), but it does track/decipher the word runes and am working on the digit runes now. --Plater (t|c) 13:03, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
    • I'm not sure on the regulations on posting here, but I've also knocked up a quick, rather inefficient script in Python for when I attempted to get my mattock. You can find it here, including a 2.6 and 3.0 script for those who have the compiler and an executable for those who don't. I'll be updating it as soon as I have enough time, and if noone makes a better one before me. It's rather simple to use:
      • "add <item> <runes>": adds the runes you gained from an adventure in combat to the possibilities. Note: <item> must be two digits: ie 01, 02, 10, 00.
      • "list": shows the digits used for the items.
      • "show <item>": Shows the current possibilities for the item.
      • "runes": Gives a list of all currently known runes.--FractalP 11:58, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Laminated cards and papers

I notice it says that for the papers, the numbers are from 0-99, thus if you get some three digit numbers you might be able to easily pick out the runes for 0, 1, and 2, or at least narrow them down. Sadly I didn't get any three digit numbers there, but I did get some on the laminated cards. Do the numbers on those fall within the same range, or am I unable to draw any conclusions from those? --Missingno 18:15, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

No, The 0-99 range is for the cards while the 0-40 range is for the papers(i think)--Darkmagicpi 12:01, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Another Dice Game Hint

Rolling doubles of anything can help you solve up to 3 runes at once. (Requires base 7 calculating)

  • The roll you got double of can only be one of 7 combos: 1,1 = 8, 2,2 = 16, 3,3 = 24 and so on (multiples of 8 except for 0,0 being 49).
  • For each one, figure out what the opposing roll has to be in order to meet the difference between them (Meat you won/7)
  • Eliminate the choices that are impossable; this ought to leave you with one valid combination:
    • Say the rolls are AA and BC and BC won with a difference of 3. If AA is 1,1 (8) then BC has to be 1,4 (11), but A and B can not both equal 1, so eleminate it.
    • Use the parchment, document, etc to rulle out zeros.
    • Eliminate any results that would give a number higher than 49 or lower than 0. Lady Oolong 18:31, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Low Grade Drooler

  • i know i've not had the best of luck in the thinking game recently, but i've worked out the runes and gotten 45 for the number of chrome ore i'm supposed to stick in the hopper. i get the message i just added to the page. am i a moron? or, less easily answered, do i now have to ascend again because i'm in an unwinnable position? --Evilkolbot 21:48, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
    • 45 does sound like a lot for the hoppers. Either 45 is actually the raw base-7 value, not base-10, or perhaps you have mistaken the hopper numbers for the gauge numbers? If not then double-check the digits... --Fig bucket 22:17, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
    • Are you sure you didn't already put some in there, and you're not trying to add the old plus the new, instead of just what you need to bring the total up to the new? - Msanychta (talk|contribs) 22:19, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
      • turns out that using differences alone and forgetting that the first minus second gives the wrong sign i was counting from the wrong end. a cursory glance at the cards proves that G is one and not six. d'oh! still, i wouldn't have found out the message if i hadn't been wrong, so go me! --Evilkolbot 22:29, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Clarifying

  • maybe i'm just slow, but it took me longer to interpret the walkthrough than it did to interpret the rune characters and digits. i've added suggestions accordingly; feel free to edit or delete. --Iskr 19:06, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
  • I had major problems with the old walkthrough, so I rewrote the whole thing. If it's better, great. If not, keep what's good (I think the explanation of the format for the cards would have been of great help to me) and revert the rest. Schlurp 21:20, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Numbers required for gauge too high

This page has been very helpful. I believe KoL just decided to mess with me. The base-7 numbers for the gauges are in my case: 04 for coal, 501 for linoleum, 01 for chrome and 45 for asbestos. In base 10 this would be 4 for coal, 246 for linoleum, 1 for chrome and 33 for asbestos. This 246 cannot be entered, and now it's not clear what to do with it. Adding this to the walkthrough would help a lot. I double-checked the runes to make sure I did it correctly. Any help would be appreciated.

-Elessar

  • Triple check the digits; you made a mistake despite double-checking. If it still doesn't work out try one of the helper/solvers. --Fig bucket 11:06, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Outdated/dead link?

When clicking on this solver link

  • Yet another web-based tool for solving the number game is Runes Are For Little Girls. Just copy and paste the resultant texts into the window.

it just comes up saying "account has been suspended".

Does anyone have a link to a working version of this tool that they can update the notes with?

If not, this link should probably be removed from the data page. If this link were to become active again after the removal, it could be put back on the data page using the above text.--SnarFoo 19:27, 9 January 2012 (CET)SnarFoo

  • Following this link only brings up a 404 "page not found". After waiting nearly 2 months without any response here, I have removed this dead link from the page.--SnarFoo 19:24, 6 March 2012 (CET)

The links to "Rugwiggle's Dwarven Powertools" and "goffrie's Dwarf Digit Solver" both give 404 errors. Anybody got new addresses for those, or should I delete them?--Alianoraree (talk) 20:49, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Hoppers Need Exact Amounts

I may well have missed it, but nowhere in the walkthrough is it mentioned that you need to fill the hoppers exactly - you cannot go over. I had put all of my supplies of ore into the hoppers, assuming that it would work if I had at least as much ore as I needed in the hoppers (which would make sense because that is the principle reason that hoppers are used), but the machine refused to work. I spent the last two days reworking my numbers repeatedly, but still could not get the machine to work. It is only when, on a whim, I decided to try removing ore from the hoppers to match my numbers exactly, and found that it did, in fact, work. I'm probably not the only one who had this problem, so a note should probably be made on the page alerting readers to this. If I get some time later I'll add it, but that may not be for a few days, so someone else could probably add it in the meantime. SciGuy 17:22, 26 September 2012 (CEST)

  • it's a number puzzle. perhaps people thought of it too much like a recipe. that is, if the recipe says add four ounces of flour no-one thought to specify "don't add all your flour unless you only have four ounces" because that's just how recipes work. sorry about that. a note should be added. maybe with a holy grail reference. or not. --Evilkolbot 18:41, 26 September 2012 (CEST)

No Bug

There's no bug. When you (or a dwarf) roll 00, you win. Just as in percentile dice, 00 = 100 (which in Dwarvish is 49 and higher than everything else you can roll on two base-7 dice). That's how HH wins and HA loses against the same number: in that example, H is zero. --Baltar (talk) 01:39, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

Retrieved from "https://wiki.kingdomofloathing.com/index.php?title=Talk:Dwarven_Factory_Complex_Puzzle&oldid=465290"