Talk:Hardcore Skill Analysis/archive4

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Love Songs

Where are we placing these? I'm thinking Tier 1.5, as they combine Hearts and Favours. Any objections?--Nightvol 22:22, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

  • Nope, makes sense to me. Also, could we add something about tongue of the otter being useful to buy in-run but not worth perming, due to the fact that in aftercore, 7k or so is pretty damn easy to get? Also, the AT song for +%int could probley refer to the PM skill that does it at a pretty amount and no song slot.--Brion thenotgiant 23:48, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
'not worth perming' goes without saying from being a Level 8 skill.--Tingly 17:14, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

The Ode to Booze

Given its functionality with the Frumious Bandersnatch, it's potentially very useful, even beyond its turns from booze boosting capabilities. Where does this fall, exactly? On one hand, it's no more useful if you don't have a Bandersnatch. On the other hand, if you do, it's a lot more useful for all types of HC ascension. --Tcoop 23 April 2009

I think Ode should be in Tier 2 regardless of whether or not you have a Bandersnatch. What I really want to know is why Astral Shell is in Tier 2. It's a Tier 6 skill if I ever saw one. --Melon 15:42, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
Astral is at least a Tier 3 skill, in that it's a way to get elemental resistance. This is useful in Guano Junction, the Daily Dungeon, the Peak, and anywhere else where enemies do elemental damage. It used to be an either/or with Elemental Saucesphere, and probably still should be. Apparently Elemental was 'demoted' due to the lesser utility of the other saucespheres. I guess I agree with the general arguments that Astral is more useful than Elemental, but I think a note should be added that if you already have Elemental Saucesphere, the importance of Astral drops significantly. --Parse 17:41, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
Once you've got Tao (which is better than Astral for DA becausde it's passive), I think you're far better off with Elemental Saucesphere if you want elemental resistance, as you'll end up receiving less damage from elemental monsters than you will from using Astral. You don't actually need a elemental resistance skill anyway. Once you've got Sympathy you pass the Trapz0r cold test in 0 turns by brining out a parrot, you don't need any resistance for the Daily Dungeon (just take the damage and heal 1 HP at Doc Galactik's, you'll still pass), and nobody should be going to the peak during an ascension anyway. For Guano Junction, just do the cemetary/fun house/knoll/fernswarthy ruins during level four, grab a harem veil (which you need anyway) at level 5 for your stench resistance. Stench resistance might be nice for doing the bat hole earlier, but once you get better you'll probably be doing your pixel farming at that time anyway.
Maybe tier 6 is a bit harsh, but I can't see why Astral needs to be higher than tier 5. Different strokes for different folks I guess... Whilst I'm ranting, I also noticed that Smooth Movement is as low as Tier 4 and Thrust-Smack is a whole tier higher than Shieldbutt. Can we rewrite this page from scratch?--Melon 20:30, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
Full agreement with Melon. Ode should be in Tier 3 (post-renumbering) regardless of Snatch ownership. The runaways are a nice bonus for an otherwise critical skill. Any objections to moving it? --Kirkpatrick 07:33, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

New MP Costs?

Just a note that if the current and alleged future MP cost reductions are permanent, there will need to be some editing (and moving?) of skills.--Tingly 21:01, 6 August 2009 (UTC)


Renaming the Tiers

Ok, so right now the tiers have subnames that seem more like categorizations of skills based on type rather than their overall quality. Tier 5's subname is "Very useful skills that depend on or support higher-priority skills." Some of the skills in Tier 5 do not depend on/support higher-priority skills. I'd like to propose that all of the Tiers have subnames similar to the ones that Tiers 6 through 9 have. Tier 7 is "Very limited use skills" which says that they are kind of useful, but not a huge priority, whereas Tier 9 is "Skills that have no possible use during a hardcore run." Even though 9's subname is not completely true, it does give a good idea to the reader to the quality of those skills, and that's what we want! --Rottingflesh 21:03, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

  • Yeah, there are a bunch of things that are outdated now - I deleted the note at the top of Tier 5 talking about +damage of tenacity and claws, for example. I think we need to work on rewriting some of the paragraphs now as well, to make them explain the current page better (and link to things like Combat Style and other such pages).
  • Possible new names?
    • 1: Skills essential for ascending
    • 2: Skills necessary for efficient ascending
    • 3: uh...drawing blanks. Ideas?

--Kirkpatrick 00:56, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Missing Skills

As I said really far below, I was cut-pasting a lot of skills to sort out the tiers and may have cut a skill without pasting it. If I have forgotten any skills, please add them in an appropriate tier! If you're not sure how or where to put it, contact either Kirkpatrick or myself. --Rottingflesh 21:21, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

I'd expect to see Master of the Surprising Fist in Tier 8 or maybe 7. While it's useful while on the Way of the Surprising Fist path it has next to no use outside of those, even with Kung Fu Hustler (Tier 7) already permed. Comments? --Yatsufusa 20:33, 28 August 2011 (CEST)

  • After using both skills for quite a while now, I must say I really underestimated their power back then. I think Kung Fu Hustler and Master of the Surprising Fist are quite useful and should be grouped either directly under (or even over?) the Sauce Synergy skills, while expanding the Tier note to explain why they were grouped as well. On the other hand I don't get warm with Saucerors and might be biased when comparing those skills... --Yatsufusa (talk) 12:38, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Frigidalmatian in Tier 9? (300 MP, stays for a single Adventure) --Yatsufusa 01:37, 17 June 2012 (CEST)

The new Buff-skills:

  • Walberg's Dim Bulb (5 MP, +10% Combat Initiative, 10 Adventures) maybe Tier 8? There are already 2 great passives and a great skill that increase one's Combat Initiative big time. Those add up to a whopping +80% Combat Initiative. Who needs another 10%?
  • Singer's Faithful Ocelot (15 MP, +10% Item Drops, 10 Adventures) on the bottom of Tier 4? Powers of Observatiogn (+10%) is Tier 3 and Natural Born Scrabbler (+5%) is towards the end of Tier 4. It's twice as good as the latter one, but it eats into ones MP.
  • Drescher's Annoying Noise (40 MP, +10 ML, 20 Adventures) somewhere between Tier 3 and Tier 7? I'd expect one might want to perm some more defensive skills before he stacks this on top of the MAD, the astral belt and Ur-Kel's Aria of Annoyance. (Hard for me to tell since I haven't permed Ur-Kel's yet.) --Yatsufusa 12:14, 6 February 2013 (CET)

Rewrite!

I may have goofed; I attempted to create a Hardcore Skill Analysis (by type) page, but ended up overwriting this page. On the plus side, it was marked for a rewrite, so.. uh.. profit?

I hope the new rewrite solves a few issues with the old. The analysis was very well written, but was kind of a hodgepodge of "Get these skills first!" with no attempt to consider how the skills would really apply during the course of a run. As a relatively new player, I found myself scrolling back and forth over the ranking hierarchy, trying to make sense out of why a skill was Tier 5 and not Tier 4. Additionally, most of the skill suggestions apply to a far older version of the game, and gave much weight (Tier 1.5) to skills that are not available. In keeping with the "There is no one correct way to play KOL" theme of the game, I hope this somewhat less arbitrary organization of skills will be of service.

--Hoobity 00:59, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Ok. So, it looks like this page has finally grabbed my attention enough to actually do something about it. There are tons of things wrong with the tiers as they stand. Shieldbutt ranked below Thrust-Smack? Cocoon way down in Tier 7? Ode not in Tier 1? The title for the Tiers, especially say.. Tier 3, being very inaccurate. Antiphon does not belong in Tier 4. All three Slimy Skills should probably be together. They are pretty much as useful as each other, in my experience. Tenacity of the Snapper being anywhere above Tier 7 or 8? Eggsplosion not being in Tier 7 (sorry, couldn't resist). The Mr. Tier (and Olfaction) muddle things up. While they are important, they are not things that you perm by Ascension, and so should probably have a special name, maybe at the top of the list. There are many other problems with these skill tiers. --MindlessGames 23:54, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

  • Eh, I'd disagree with the disagreement that the +HP Slimy skill is the same as the others. The combat initiative one deserves to go with whatever tier Overdeveloped Sense goes with. The MP one can give you an immediate cast of Leash/Fusilli (if you go the Yellow Ray the sewer gator route) and allow you to get out of level 1/2 quickly. The HP one...well...+20 HP is nice, but its not really going to do much to make survival easier (one cast of Madrigal will do that), and by the time its less important to out-moxie opponents and to one-hit KO them, 20 HP really won't make it easier or faster.
  • Antiphon should probably get dropped to Tier 8, the MP cost is prohibitive for early on when the +3 substat/fight is more noticeable. To be honest, I'm not really sure how it's even up there.
  • There are some issues, I think a major part is that a lot of this list has skills in positions from NS11, and really hasn't updated/changed them. Probably time for a major rewrite.--Toffile 03:01, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
Just to underscore the need for a rewrite: Eggsplosion is currently in a Tier titled "Skills That Have No Possible Use in Ascension" :P --Kirkpatrick 06:37, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm gonna throw this out there: the tier system needs a complete overhaul, at least towards the top. In particular, the definition for Tier 3 is arbitrary as all hell - given the stated point of the page at the top ("grouped by how useful they are at making a hardcore ascension happen faster"), shouldn't Tier 4 necessarily be above it? Better ascenders than I can go into the specifics about what skills belong where and such, but the tier system using definitions like that and not, for instance, allowing Ode in Tier 3 even though it's more optimal than pretty much any skill in there is completely asinine.

--ninereal 3:03, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

  • You mean Tier 2/3 now. I just excised the Mr. Skills. The thing is that I'm unsure of that if abandoning a numbering system is really worthwhile, since there are definitely priorities for skills. "These skills make you not take a month to do an ascension, these ones make it so you don't get your ass off quickly, these ones save time, but not nearly as many as tier 1" follow by other skills of varying usefulness in hardcore.--Toffile 03:13, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
Excellent. Nice work on cleaning up the discussion, by the way. Looks like we might actually be on the way to rewriting this page into being useful! I think having a numbered system is bound to happen, I imagine people would call them "the second group" and "first tier" anyway, so numbering them from the outset makes sense to me. Do the tiers need to have accurate descriptions, or is something like "Here are the first 5 skills to perm" and "Here the next 10 to consider" enough? Grouping them by "type" is done on another page. (Also, Tasteful Gifts wasn't in the Mr. Tier...) --Kirkpatrick 03:45, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
Eh, the other page is a sort by the skills effect. Not by their relevance (which is this page's purpose).--Toffile 04:15, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
Fair enough. I'm just thinking that the way they're titled now makes things a little misleading, or restricted...for example, if you had a tier with both entangling noodles and smooth movements (as we might), that wouldn't fit into just one of "skills that speed up your run" or "skills that save your ass", but into both...not sure how to deal with that. --Kirkpatrick 05:45, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

I like where this is heading. However, I would encourage people to not worry about giving a specific number to perm order after about 10-15 skills. There is a definite consensus among top ascenders that: SHC, AC, Pasta, Sauce, Sympathy, Ode, Mad Looting, Phat Loot, Madrigal, and probably Leash are among those top 10-15, and the first 7 there are very widely agreed upon as "These are the first 7 you should get." However, I think that much beyond that, it is ok to lump skills into groups (Tiers), and that those tiers should guide people towards what we (as the speed community) feel will help them the most. Ideally, we'll get it so that most people will want to pick skills from the tiers, rather than jumping around a lot. For example: Cannelloni Cocoon is way down on the list currently. But really, it should be rather high up. It's extremely powerful, especially if someone does not have the VIP key. Tiers 2 and 3 need some swapping and re-titling. I propose the following:

Tier 2: Skills which add or save turns, but not as drastically as Tier 1. [hey, it's a working title]

Mad Looting Skillz, Phat Loot, Leash, Ode, Smooth Movement, Sonata.

Tier 3: Skill which improve survival, or are very helpful all-around.

Entangling Noodles, Overdeveloped Preservation, Fusilli, Madrigal, Mojomuscular, Observatiogn, Natural Scrabbler, Shieldbutt, Tao.

Slimy Shoulders could go into Tier 3, but it's pretty steep to acquire, as opposed to grabbing from a class/ascension. I think that what we should do is not try to re-tier everything all at once, but proceed one or two tiers at a time, get it the way we want, and then move on to the next one. After all, Tiers 1-3 are probably the most important. After that point, people are probably going to feel comfortable enough with HC to choose perm orders for themselves, rather than looking to us for advice. The analysis of each skill will help them make decisions, or see why Eggsplosion belongs in a place like "skills for very special situations." [among many other skills that they might think are awesome] :-) --MindlessGames 08:46, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

  • Please. This is a list for the general hardcore player, not one looking to pull a stunt run. If you were to get enough MP to consistently use Eggsplosion, you'd have to be a Mysticality class running something close to a +500% mainstat buff. If you were a Myst class, you'd be better off with one of their top tier spells which output the same amount of damage on the first casting...for a much cheaper MP cost. There are only a few enemies in the games who wouldn't be one-shotted by those spells as is. It's a very, very, very, specific instance that would only serve a stunt-runner. (Who probably has better knowledge of the skills by this point)
  • As for tier 1/2 I'm thinking about it. I really don't actually mind the order the first 3 tiers are in right now. Skills to make the game easy->Survival skills->skills that save time. Really, I don't mind swapping out the tiers, but speeding up your game isn't the prime motive of many players in skill choice.
  • I'll post some more thoughts later, I have to finish work on some projects.--Toffile 14:08, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
    • If you don't intend on speeding up your game, it doesn't really matter what you perm. You can temple-level all your stats up to 200 and then coast through the game easily if speed isn't important. There is already a page on the wiki that groups skills by the manner in which they help you. This is a strategy analysis page. --P4n1q 23:46, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
      • (Just be a bit more careful where you post, when I came back to see the arguments I thought someone had pre-empted me. :P ) My point is that the tier 2 does save a ton of turns of either grinding/farming or in crap areas that can be spent better elsewhere. By the way that I look at it, Tier 1 and 2 basically help cut down on the useless overhead, while Tier 3 should be squeezing turns in other places.--Toffile 00:53, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
    • One day, people will realize that I am not joking when I talk about the Tower Monster thing being not a stunt. Nor a thing for just Myst classes. I suppose it's just going to take more people trying out what I outlined, and seeing that I wasn't kidding about it being alarmingly easy, and very probably optimal for a sufficiently skilled player. Until that day, sure, you can express that they have "no" or "extremely limited use," if you're talking about a general player. But make no mistake: It was not, and is not, a stunt. --MindlessGames 15:11, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
      • Well, we can always move it around if the strategy ever becomes more common and TPTB don't attempt to short-circuit it by making tower monsters elementally resistant.--Toffile 00:53, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Tier 1 looks OK as is. Tiers 2 and 3 need work. MindlessGames's suggested Tier 2/3 set would be an improvement, though I'd personally drop Scrabbler and add Hero. -Greycat 15:50, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
    • Ode belongs in Tier 1. --P4n1q 23:46, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
      • I would really disagree. Ode in the best case will save about ~20 turns/day (assuming you're a moxie class with Superhuman and a bartender-in-the-box), and that's not quite in the same category as the crafting skills/sympathy which get rid of the most annoying part of HC...scrounging for good food/booze. Ode will help subsidize some of those costs, but its not exactly going to save a ton of turns in a run without a few things first. Also remember that this page really shouldn't be making any assumptions on what familiars a player should have, so the free runaways isn't really a reason to bump it up from 3.--Toffile 00:53, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
        • First of all, outside of banderways, ode doesn't save any turns at all; it generates them. Secondly, the crafting skills don't get rid of scrounging for consumables, because you still need to find bottles, mixers, and ingredients. How does ode subsidize those costs? What costs are you even referring to? The turn generation from ode is greater than that of SHC for non-mox classes. 20 adv/day is huge. Even if we aren't going to assume that people have banders, we shouldn't ignore that they exist. Ode will cut days off your run immediately. It is certainly not tier 3. It is tier 1. --P4n1q 01:31, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
          • See the tier 1 section for my response.--Toffile 01:56, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Agree with p4n1q about the optimal perming list. If this isn't a list for speed, then it's not useful - that's why we're redoing it. Also agree with greycat - those 2/3 tiers are good, but add Hero as well. Scrabbler is a maybe, for me. --Kirkpatrick 03:22, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
    • Eh, I really did misword that response earlier. You'll have to forgive me, I was in a bit of a rush. Shaving turns off a run is good, but it doesn't matter if you have to spend them grinding in non-optimal areas because you're either stuck farming for something or can't actually hit/survive in a zone due to the disproportion between your main stat and the Council quest (really noticeable for the level 10, 11, and 12 quests. That's what I happened to feel what we need a tier for.--Toffile 03:55, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
  • In the interest of sparking this again, I went ahead and applied a bunch of the tier swapping changes mentioned above. I left Madrigal in Tier 2, since it is incredibly useful for helping your run (having MCD "painlessly" on all the time is good, yes). Still some tweaking to be done though, for sure. I also went through and adjusted some of the outdated descriptions for the skills in the first three tiers.

--Kirkpatrick 09:36, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Mr. Tier

Small question. Should we also include things like Vent Rage Gland or Rainbow's Gravitation to split off the skills that are automatically marked as HP?--Toffile 00:58, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

  • I feel like having those kind of skills in the other tiers is strange, since they don't take an ascension to perm. Not sure if we should just have them all in the Mr. Tier, or find something else. --Kirkpatrick 03:22, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Tier 1

Does anyone have real objections to the skills as they stand right now? Should Ode join it? Any thoughts on a better name?--Toffile 00:58, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

  • Ode belongs in tier 1. Tier 1 is a fine name. --P4n1q 01:31, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
    • It might save on average one day per week off a run...assuming the best case scenario (that you get beer lenses and being a moxie class). The crafting skills happen to save a lot of turns because while you might be still scrounging for ingredients, the food you can get is much better than the stuff that your normally could make/find in terms of adventure gains, however they also give much better stat gains than most raw stuff...something that Ode can not do. In reference to Ode subsidizing, I was referring to the fact that if you don't happen to have a bartender-in-the-box, that Ode helps lower the turns that it actually costs to make some booze. I'll also have to disagree with your point about the Bandersnatch, this page is supposed to be as generic as possible. Yes they exist, but this page is only to evaluate skills by themselves and how they work in hardcore without considering familiars.--Toffile 01:56, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
      • You can't assume people are going to always be a moxie class, because, well, people aren't always going to be a moxie class. Ode allows you to directly transform MP into adventures, which is something no other skill in the game does. It is going to cut days off your runs in a way that no other skill outside of Tier 1 is going to be able to do. If you want to be as generic as possible, then the crafting skills are not tier one, because you won't really use them as oxy, except SHC for tonic. I'm not sure how you can agree that ode cuts days off your run immediately, and then say it goes in Tier III. --P4n1q 02:16, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
        • I want to thank you for starting to realize part of my argument. Every factor that I listed in that best-case scenario that isn't met cuts down the yield of Ode. (It's why it's the best-case scenario) Not a moxie class? No access to SHC drinks, which means you would be drinking just regular fruity girl drinks which have a slightly lower turn yield with Ode (they straddle the line between +3 and +4 adventures from Ode). No bartender? Well you'll have to sink a turn or two into making those mixed drinks, which cut its benefit drastically.
I agree with the fact that it can save maybe a day or two off a run, but the effect is not nearly as noticeable as the skills that are currently in Tier 1. Most common food/drink is horrible, and just by giving yourself more turns/stats from them can help shave more than a day per week off an ascension. (Also, If you had read the introduction to the page, you'd notice that it says "In general these recommendations are aimed at ascensions that don't choose a path, so that consumption of food and booze isn't restricted.")--Toffile 02:33, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
Oh and one other note, if it helps the clarification, I think that Tier 2/3 (whatever it shall come out of this discussion as) is for skills that do in fact save time, but not as well as the Tier 1 stuff. Like Tier 1 Jr.--Toffile 02:43, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
          • Not having SHC drinks will make ode proudce proportionately more of your turns, not fewer. If you don't have a bartender, you're losing more turns to crafting, which would make generating more turns with ode even more important, not less. You have your logic totally backward. --P4n1q 02:59, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Would you please stop inserting your response inside my remarks? This is the second time you've done it.

Ode gives roughly 1 bonus adventure/drunkeness. This number varies somewhat between drink classes, since the adventure yield of a drink may straddle the thresholds between the bonus yield of +N adventures and +N+1 adventures. Now if you want to argue "Advanced Cocktails gain a ~31% increase to the adventures given" as opposed to "SHC gain a ~25% increase to adventures given", that's fine. It's not exactly helping the argument of "Ode saves days" however. As I said before, Ode will on average in the best-case scenario save roughly ~20 turns per day that can be spent not making booze.

Even with eating bad food/drink, you're probably going to get about 110 turns/day, ~130 with Ode. This means that every 6-7 days you make up enough turns with Ode to save 1 day of turns. Pastamastery? It'll double the adventures from food you can cook up, and give you better stat gain. Gives at least 30 turns a day, more if you have Saucecrafting. Advanced Cocktailcrafting? Same deal. (Taking SHC makes it more effective because you can get more girly drinks) Having the tier 1 skills are a much more effective way of knocking days off of runs, and also diminish the days that Ode can knock off. You can easily pull 200 turns/day with those 4 skills. Suddenly that day of turns per week that was saved? Now it's per week and a half. I'm sorry. Ode's a time-saver, I can give you that, but its not nearly as good at it as the skills in Tier 1, which is why it falls below it. I've got to leave now, I have a final exam in about 9 hours.--Toffile 03:45, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

  • So 30 adv/day is in Tier 1, but 20 adv/day is in Tier 3 with impetuous sauciness? You clearly don't realize how important turn generation is. If you aren't a moxie class, ode generates more turns than SHC. I've got to leave now; I have to use a comma in the place of a semicolon in about nine hours. --P4n1q 04:02, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

This is a nice discussion, however, you two are starting to go in circles. This page is focused on speed. If you are not focused on speed, do you really care what you perm? Ode does not save turns (unless, as noted, you have a bandersnatch, which we are not accounting for here). Even in a 4-day Hardcore run, making a Bartender is (on average) very worthwhile. The 75th percentile (75% of people who try for the lenses) will only get 3 drunkenness from the Tavern before getting the lenses. This equates to roughly 12-15 turns of crafting. On days 2, 3, and 4 of a run, you'll use about 30 bartender charges of booze-crafting. With SHCs, Ode generates 4 adventures 100% of the time; With ACs, Ode generates 4 adventures 80% of the time, and 3 adventures 20% of the time. Ode is very much stronger than most people give it credit for. It definitely belongs in Tier 1 or 2. It is very certainly among the top 7 skills for HCNP. (SHC, AC, Pasta, Sauce, Sympathy, Ode, Mad Looting). Even in a 4-day non-moxie, you're drinking 4 ACs on days 1 and 4, and 5 on days 2 and 3. That's 18*3.8 = 68.4 extra adventures from Ode in a very fast run. That's also a low-end estimate, because you'll be filling in with semi-rares or schnapps. Ode adds a boatload of turns to your run, especially slower runs (7-10 days). It definitely belongs in Tier 1 or 2. --MindlessGames 09:19, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Tier 3

I've been discussing this in /clan and such, and been thinking over things a little. First, shieldbutt really isn't necessary in the first 20 skills or so, since you're rarely pushing combat that hard without significant sources of +ML. Seems to fit in high-end Tier IV to me.

Similarly with Fusilli - when combat early on is a lot of outmox and plinking, spending precious MP on that initiative isn't very worthwhile - not when you have the much more important Tier 2 skills to fund. I think we should drop that to Tier 4.

I'm not sure that Scrabbler is worth a Tier 3 placement either, +5% items, though passive, is a little marginal. Thoughts? --Kirkpatrick 13:24, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

  • Shieldbutt and Ur-Kel's should probably go together. Around the time that you want to start running a lot of +ML is the time that you want to get Shieldbutt, I think. Scrabbler is a good one, and I think it should end up wherever Powers of Observatiogn ends up. +10% and +5% items are about the same, especially passively. I don't think Impetuous Sauciness belongs in Tier 3. I personally never use it to lengthen reagent effects in-run (usually only use reagent potions for 1 turn for a tough fight or something). Sauciness seems more like something that a newer player would want, in order to make it easier, not something you would want to make the run go faster. The more I think about Fusilli, the more I think that you're correct, and it doesn't really belong in Tier 3; However, Preservation should go there (and maybe Slimy Shoulders?). --MindlessGames 22:29, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
    • I went ahead and swapped ODSSP for Fusilli. Unstated benefit: early moxie runs are faster/less painful than early myst runs! I think the slime init skill is fine a tier lower, due ot the prohibitive cost/time to acquire. (Also, I swapped Aria for Salve, in Tier 4. Seemed like a clear move to me). I agree Sauciness shouldn't be in Tier 3, it's a convenience perm, and even taking the "fight harder monsters" argument into account, it still won't speed you up or help you as universally as any of the other skill in Tier 3. Anyone have an idea for something that could replace it, or just drop it down? --Kirkpatrick 10:59, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
    • So, upon further discussion with some people, I decided to drop impetuous down, because it doesn't make any sense to have it in a different tier than Way. Without Way, you won't have any reagents left over to make potions (after milk, pasta, pasta). This also leaves the first three tiers lean and mean, which I don't really mind, it's less overwhelming that way. --Kirkpatrick 13:51, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Ode to Booze

There was some discussion about this. It belongs in Tier 1. If you have some compelling reason why it does not belong there, then speak up. However, "you can't cast it on day 1" isn't really an argument, since if you can't, then you can on day 2+, and your run will be longer anyway, and Ode has a more pronounced effect. It definitely adds a lot of turns per day once AC and SHC are there.--MindlessGames 05:38, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

See my note under Sympathy. --Kirkpatrick 08:39, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

I just don't understand why everyone is arguing about this. If Tier One is about turn gen, then Ode belongs there.--Gothictranquility 12:27, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Amphibian Sympathy

Does this skill belong in Tier 1? I think it does, but other people do not. Tier 1 seems to have become the "serious turn generation" tier. +5 pounds is an enormous deal to an unskilled player, but is it strong enough to stay in Tier 1? Thoughts are welcome. --MindlessGames 05:49, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

  • I guess it's just one of those skills that starts to feel less awesome as you keep ascending and perming skills. It's still an awesome skill in my mind; I would say it should be top of Tier 2. But since this is mainly a guide geared towards those starting out, I guess Tier 1 might be better. Rottingflesh 07:13, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

I feel like Ode and Sympathy fit together - they're both fantastically awesome, but aren't quite the big four. I'd get behind having them both at the "bottom" of Tier 1 or both at the "top" of Tier 2. Having them in Tier 1 keeps things more balanced and clear, so I'm good with it. And yeah, Sympathy is like Tao, you get so used to it that you start overlooking its power. --Kirkpatrick 08:40, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Renumbering

How's about changing Tier 1.5 to Tier II and bumping the others down one?--Tingly 09:05, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

I very much dislike this change; the whole point of the page is to help players choose which skills to perm while doing HC runs, not to decide which IotM to buy next. As 1.5, we could see that these weren't real skill perm choices, just side upgrades we should go for. Now its suggesting that after we get the 4 tier 1 skills, we need to spend many millions on the next set of skills, which would only frustrate new players to no end. Besides, Ode and Mad Looting Skillz trump any of those book skills easily. --Levio 17:46, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Levio: the tomes and librams at level 1.5 makes more sense to me. Otherwise, how about making a 'Mr Skills' section, and then listing the skills by type/worth? -- Zucker 21:59, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
I made the change after 2+ weeks of nothing. People would think they need to save up for Mr. Store stuff just as much with "1.5" as "II." Who would put 130 runs on hold for months to meatfarm? If Ode and Looting are better, you should move them up. Not all Mr. Stores are that level. A couple are down around level 7 and I don't think the issue exists for them any more now than before. Mr. Stores should stay in the main list if they're staying at all. I've wanted to remove them since they haven't been skills for awhile, but Olfaction should stay. I already put Mr. Store in the class (level) column which should solve some of this. [EDIT: I added a phrase to the level description so the clueless know not to farm for them before moving on. Remove it if the Mt. Store stuff gets deleted.]--Tingly 09:58, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I also think the renumbering is very unhelpful. Either we have to fully integrate the Mr. Store skills (+TO) into the list -- in which case someone with more knowledge than me needs to go and think about what level each one should be in -- or we should make it clear that the fact that Summon Stickers is in the second tier should not be taken as a statement about its relative importance compared to skills in the first and third tiers. --Campboy 21:11, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

They've always been integrated into the list. They were at "1.5" out of laziness. Most Mr. Store skills fit right where they are, TO was included cuz it fit the tier, and the other 3 are listed at lower tiers. Tier 2's description is, "Extremely valuable skills you purchase..." If stickers aren't an extremely valuable skill, they shouldn't be Tier 2.--Tingly 20:52, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
There are plenty of "extremely valuable" skills that aren't in tier 2, and currently the criterion for being in tier 2 is how you acquire the skill. Which is why calling it "Tier 2" is misleading. Olfaction is clearly good enough to be in Tier 1. Tomes are stronger than Librams, and I would say there are some normal skills which belong above Candy Hearts but below Stickers, for example. Maybe they were in "Tier 1.5" partly out of laziness, but calling it "Tier 2" instead doesn't make it any less lazy. --Campboy 18:33, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

The renumbering makes it very awkward to discuss the Tiers - saying something is in "Tier 4" makes it sound less important than it is, even though it's really in the third tier of run-permable skills. I Propose a change to take the Mr. Tier out of the numbered flow. --Kirkpatrick 20:54, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Slime Skills

I would put these in Tier 5. They do make certain portions of the game easier/faster, but they do not "considerably increase the speed of your run" (which is Tier 4). 20 extra HP and 10 extra MP immediately upon starting an ascension makes everything really easy, and makes stacking on some ML right away not nearly as risky as if you only have 8 or 9 HP. And then +20% initiative is precisely on par with Overdeveloped Preservation, which is already in Tier 5. --MindlessGames 19:23, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Superhuman Cocktailcrafting

This is currently in Tier 4. It should be in Tier 1. Not much else to say, but there's clear consensus among the ascension community that it belongs at the top. --Kirkpatrick 07:40, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

  • Agreed. Especially since I feel it should be someone's first or second HPerm. --MindlessGames 08:06, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Toss

Toss is not a Tier 8 skill. Simply put, with Sympathy, it always does 8+ damage for 1 mp, easily settling around 15. There are lots of situations where a monster will easily be killed by Toss, and using Shieldbutt would cost 4 more mp. Yes, it's situational, but 4 mp is 4 mp. I think that it should be in Tier 6 with Stream. Tier 6 is titled "Skills for special situations." Rottingflesh 09:20, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

  • With sympathy I think it's even 9+ always - and with the everpresent Leash, that's up to 12+ damage for 1 MP. Pretty solid. Agreed on the move. --Kirkpatrick 09:31, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Crimbo 2009?

Where would the Crimbo Carol skills fit in here? Are any of them useful at all in a Hardcore run? (And it's too bad they're not automatically hardcore permed) --RttlesnkeWhiskey 16:19, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

  • And how about the Summon Crimbo Candy skill? Useful at all in the early stages of a run? --RttlesnkeWhiskey 16:35, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
  • I think that a few are slightly useful. The Summon Crimbo Candy and Jingle Bells are probably Tier 6. The Seal Clubber skill is probably Tier 7 since HP is useful, but it's still 10 MP. The AT and DB skills are Tier 8 by far. The Sauce and PM skills are probably Tier 7 or 8. Rottingflesh 00:35, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
    • I just put in the Crimbo skills and the first Trader skill. I was also moving a bunch of skills around. If a skill is missing, that's probably my fault. You can either tell me which skills are missing or put it in whichever Tier you feel appropriate. Rottingflesh 08:03, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Cocoon/Healing Skills

I can't see why Cocoon belongs in Tier 3, but Walrus tongue in Tier 7. If, say, you have a VIP Key, you hardly need either, since it'll full heal and cure beaten up (and the rest, of course). If you don't have Hot Tub access, then you can't full heal or cure beaten up, so I'd value Tongue more than cocoon, since you won't be healing 75+ HP very much outside of the endgame/muscle classes. Going to drop cocoon at least a tier right now. Also, Salve in tier 5? I would value Tongue above it as well - how often does someone with noodles need to emergency heal in-combat as opposed to efficiently heal out of combat? --Kirkpatrick 02:59, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

  • Walrus isn't much more efficient than DPN, and I didn't think that there needed to be two mid-range healing skills recommended. DPN has free rests and Walrus cures beaten up. Free MP is always useful, whereas after a few survival perms, beaten up isn't usually a problem. And for the few times that it is, it can usually be cured by using a shore trip or doing the DD. I guess an argument can be made for either one. And for Cocoon, I think Tier 4 is appropriate. Salve probably can be in 6, but it's more useful than Walrus in my opinion. You can avoid beaten up and still get stats and items from the monster.

--Rottingflesh 16:42, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

  • It is my understanding that this is to be written under the assumption that you don't have any Mr. Store stuff, which means no VIP key, which makes tongue much more appealing.--P4n1q 00:29, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Suckerpunch

Should it be tier 8? If you have a bandersnatch this is a totally different skill. a 2 round stun followed by damage in the range of 1/2 Weight - Weight, and all for 1mp per round. Fairly powerful for low levels. Perhaps should be moved up to 7 or 6. Discordance 22:56, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

  • Suckerpunch's Bander-smust is only applicable to DBs. No other classes get it. --RoyalTonberry 23:14, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
    • Is that still true now that 0-level skills are permable? My bander's firing on my permed zeroes, though I can't test suckerpunch as I haven't got it yet. --BagatelleT/C 04:15, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
      • Ah, never mind. The perming update predates the bander spading. --BagatelleT/C 04:19, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Symphony versus Power Ballad

I don't understand valueing Power Ballad over Symphony. The reasoning given is that Ballad's additional muscle lets you use melee weapons, but shieldbutt already covers you for that. Add +init and noodles and extra HP isn't all that valuable either. The +damage for symphony is a bigger boost and works with spells so it's more flexible.--RogerMexico 13:14, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

The reason is that you usually have other songs competing for the AT song slots (Aria, Sonata, Cantata, Loot, etc.). Power Ballad gives +10 muscle, which is huge in the early parts of the game, and that allows you to fight with some extra +ML without needing to Shieldbutt. Thus, you save MP. The extra HP means you can survive through those fights even if you don't kill in one or two hits. Also, it opens up your guild sooner if you're a muscle class. --Rottingflesh 20:00, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Br'er Tarrypin

Thoughts? It's definitely either in Tier 3 or Tier 4---it allows for more stats/item drops early on in the game, letting you finish early quests more quickly---but it's especially helpful if you juggle around a lot of familiars that do similar things (Slimeling/Pixie, Bander/Llama/Sandworm).

  • I would put it in tier 6. It is not even close to tier 3 quality. --RoyalTonberry 04:09, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Lasagna Bandages

Lasagna Bandages is categorised as "useless" in Tier 8. Now, I'm still a novice---and thus I might have made a grave mistake---, however, although I still lack many essential skills, I wanted one decent healing skill permed, because I found that I tend to get stuck in the early levels of my runs, because I have to spend too much of my meat on ailment ointments. After looking at the various healing skills I decided for Lasagna Bandages. Here's my reasoning:

- Compared to Tongue of the Walrus and Disco Power Nap: According to Cost Analysis of Restoring HP and MP, its average MP per HP ratio as an out-of-combat-skill is 0.3; thus equal to Disco Power Nap and close to Tongue of the Walrus (0.286). It outperforms either, if cast with reduced MP. It lacks these other two's ability to remove negative effects, but on the plus side---and this was an important point in my decision---its absolute amount of MP cost/HP restored is significantly lower, thus it is better suited for the early levels.

- Compared as to Saucy Salve: So far, I found that, when I feel the need for healing during combat, rather than between combats, the amount healed by either skill is neglegible (i.e. the monster does way too much damage, anyways). The one notable exception would be the Gremlins, in which case Lasagna Bandage's potentially greater absolute amount of HP restored is of greater use.

- Compared to Saucy Salve II: With 0.32 MP/HP Saucy Salve is only slightly worse than Lasagna Bandages, and it get even significantly better, if spells can be cast with reduced MP. This would make it useful as a general HP restorer in the early levels. But since it can be cast just once reliably without provoking an attack, it has in that capacity little use in the later parts of run, while Lasagna Bandages remains useful even for healing large amounts of HP, at least as long as Cannelloni Cocoon is not available.

Long story short: My reasoning is this: 1. a permed healing skill is very useful early even before some Tier 3 or even Tier 2 skills are permed. At least that seems to be the case for me. 2. If there is to be only one such healing skill, then LB is a good choice because of its versatility. Nuovocentauro 19:50, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Lasagna Bandages doesn't cure beaten up. That's why I would not recommend it as a first healing skill. As noted, the only real use for in-combat healing is against gremlins; I find that muscle and moxie classes do not need the healing, and myst classes can buy bandages/salve in-run for 500 meat. I would therefore rank Bandages below Tongue of the Walrus (cures Beaten Up), Disco Power Nap (free MP), and maybe even Disco Nap (less free MP). --Psly4mne 13:28, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Mr. Tier

The Mr. Tier isn't very useful. People come to this page wanting to learn what skills to perm, but since the Bookshelf skills are auto-perm, they don't compete with the class skills for perms. Especially coming first, it just gets in the way of useful information. For right now I'm going to move it below the other tiers, but it probably also needs reworking. --Starwed 20:42, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Impetuous Sauciness

Shouldn't Impetuous Sauciness be more important now that Got Milk decreases with every point of fullness filled? --NotPicard 22:16, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

  • Imho it should have been rated higher even before the change. Potions are not as helpful as reagent dishes, but doubling the duration of potions makes that half of the skill twice as good. And it was already a Tier 1-skill, you might have permed already. --Yatsufusa 03:39, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
  • Yeah, I'd give my vote anyways to moving it up some, what with the reduction of milk. Not necessarily any higher than 6 (maybe 5 if feeling generous), and leave it marked as controversial...but it's now essentially another 5 turns rather than just being a buff extender. --jletter

Volcanometeor Showeruption

I feel like Volcanometeor Showeruption should be mentioned, once the damage-formula and -range are known. (Tier 6, 7 or 8?) Even though during hardcore you need to spend some Adventures with the Pottery Barn Owl familiar to get volcanic ash, it's do-able. Ash could be farmed during adventuring while waiting for certain noncombats to occur. The spell could work out pretty well on the Bonerdagon or NS, because they can block spells and suck Mysticality-classes' MP away.
But maybe I'm on the wrong track here and the skill is mainly for looking at... Opinions? --Yatsufusa 16:35, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

  • It looks to be the equivalent of Awesome Balls of Fire at full charge. That is to say, the three components are Saucegeysers, always tuned to Hot. The requirement to get the 3 volcanic ashes is a bit steep. Volcanometeor should go in the same spot as Awesome Balls of Fire. Though, I sort of feel like the 120 MP hobo spells should be bumped up to tier 8, since they are generally useless, but not entirely. --RoyalTonberry 17:08, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
    • While I agree that the 120 MP hobo spells aren't entirely useless in a Hardcore context, they only gain that semi-usefulness AFTER you perm them... which reduces their utility somewhat. Wrldwzrd89 12:24, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
  • Using the owl also means not using a more productive familiar. A stat-gain familiar, meat-dropper, or better MP regen familiar would be better. And the chances of getting ash from the owl directly are pretty small to my understanding. The skill would be more useful in softcore just because you can stick the owl in the CoT, but even then there are a lot of more productive choices to stick in the crown. --Flargen 19:24, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Ode and the crafting revamp

I know most of the table needs a revamp, but I was wondering with the new crafting changes where does ode really sit? at >200MP/day to make full use of it it seems like quite a hassle to support. Is it still a top-tier skill now that it wears out while drinking? --SilentKnight 00:13, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

  • The table doesn't need a large-scale revamp. That's already been done. Ode is fine where it is, it gives you about 18-23 adventures per day, depending on nightcap and liver. That adds up in a mighty big hurry. And over 200 MP? How do you figure? Unless you're thinking people are casting AT songs without making the rarl, in which case, this page doesn't really apply to them. --RoyalTonberry 01:34, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
    • What if they're doing a Bad Moon leadin :( --Toffile 04:12, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
      • That sounds awful specific to me. Since there's a method to gain permanent BM access, I'd imagine those don't happen very often. --Yatsufusa 09:51, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Crimbo 2010 skills

Anybody have any suggestions on where Fashionably Late and Lunch Break should go? I put Executive Narcolepsy in Teir 7, since it's a dupe of disco nap minus the healing the free rest is useful enough, but the others I'm not sure if they're better then that.

Fashionably Late adds a turn to each day, which would add 5-7 extra turns to a run.

Lunch Break lets you summon food once a day, which could be useful on the first day or two of a run before you have food.

Offensive Joke delevels by 20 for only 15MP, so it works quicker than the disco attacks but can't be chained.

I'd say tier 7 for Narcolepsy and tier 6 for the other 3 unless anybody objects.--Quickdart 19:29, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

  • Tier 6 or 7 sounds good. "special situations" definitely describes these. Probably also put Employee of the Month next to Smile of Mr. A at the bottom of the list --RoyalTonberry 22:54, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
  • Agreed for the most part. Narcolepsy is pretty awesome in HCO. And with a moderate number of skills it's honestly hard to find a single skill perm that will grant or save even a single turn over the entire run, so it actually ends up being a reasonably good skill choice, but not one people will often look at as the difference maker, especially since once you hit mid-skill you're trying to complete a bunch of skill combos. I'd think it's better than Joke, though. There are better alternatives for deleveling than Joke. A good delevel skill is quite useful, but this is just a mediocre one at best due to the MP cost, not being part of a combo, and high damage (usually you want to delevel so you can then stasis the combat more easily). Sack Lunch is fine at 6 or 7. It might be nice for low-skill or that higher-skill hail mary should you end up desperate for something on casserole level near the end of a run, but will probably become increasingly less useful as you get more skills. --Flargen 23:13, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
  • I feel that Fashionably Late would fit into Tier 4 under Unaccompanied Miner. Unaccompanied Miner saves at least 5 Adventures per Ascension, up to 10 if you stop digging for the day after 5 digs. And it enables you to come back later in that ascension and collect ore for a chrome sword or heavy metal thunderrr guitarrr. I'm sure experienced ascenders may find flaws in that line of reasoning and I'm eager to read them. --Yatsufusa 06:38, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
    • I think the argument is that that Unaccompanied Miner saves 5 adventures (Your 6-day 800 adv run is now a 6-day 795 adv run), while Fashionably Late adds extra adventures (Your 6-day 800 adv run is still 800 adv, you just 6 left over after killing the NS). It just might shave a day off a run if you're on the edge, but it's unlikely. I could see moving it up to Tier 5 if anybody else chimes in on it's usefulness.--Quickdart 16:46, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Pumpkin Patch

Just a confirmation but I'm guessing 'permanent items that speed up Hardcore runs', like the pumpkin patch and the telescope wouldn't go here? IS there any place for them to go? I recall it being mentioned that the pumpkin patch was the first of a new class of 'growable' items, so we'll probably see more of them...--Quickdart 00:22, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

  • I would put the packet of pumpkin seeds into Mr. Tier. Similar to Tomes and Librams one has to pay a Mr. A for it and you will have to choose which one you want to use this time. Except you have to do the choice before the run starts. The Telescope (as well as Rainbow Gravitation) is acquired similarly: You just invest meat, one way or the other. I would rank them Mr. Tier as well, since you don't have to ascend to acquire them. Currently there seem to be only the Telescope, Rainbow Gravitation and Vent Rage Gland that are marked HP without ascending. Maybe we need a Meat Tier... --Yatsufusa 09:56, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
    • Pumpkins and telescope aren't skills. They don't belong here. I don't really think anything should be on this list except skills you have to ascend to perm, but, it seems that battle has already been lost. Regardless, non-skills should definitely not be on a page for the analysis of skills.--P4n1q 22:00, 5 January 2011 (UTC)


Smile of Mr. A

Should this even be listed? It's not a skill that's actually permed, right... I'm personally of the opinion that anything you don't select in the skill perm dropdown shouldn't be here, but at the very least, if it never shows as (P) or (HP), should it be included? (I'm told that it's listed on your charsheet, but not with (P) or (HP), hence thinking we should exclude it.) --StDoodle 08:35, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Well, Stinky Breath can be achieved, too. ;) At the very least, it would be nice if it was in the Mr. Tier, I think (though it would actually be nice if that tier was further broken up, but that's... complicated). --StDoodle 17:17, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree that skills that cannot be made permanent should not appear in this list. In that line of reasoning, I do not think that Smile of Mr. A should be listed. I really don't think the Mr. Store skills belong at all, but, like you said, it is complicated.--P4n1q 03:40, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

This skill cannot be permed. Does it belong on this list at all? Admittedly, it can be permanently acquired. --Stannius 20:27, 6 September 2012 (CEST)

Elemental Resistance Revamp

Thought I'd bring this up - with the change to how elemental resistance works, the passive resist skills seem to me to be much better in the early levels(they can take up to 6 damage off an attack where previously they'd decrease it by far less). Is this enough to bump them(or at least, some) up a tier? Edir 13:47, 11 August 2011 (CEST)

  • I've been thinking the same, but then again the elemental resistances you need during a run are all over the place. Not single one of them really helps that much. Those which seem to make the most difference to me are Heart of Polyester for the hole in the sky and Tolerance of the Kitchen for the friars' quest, since you spend a lot of time fighting there. On top of that Heart of Polyester aids going through the daily dungeon, since with skills alone an Exotic Parrot is just one lb to light to grant sleaze resistance without levelling it. Even factoring all that in, those skills look perfectly negligible to me. They have an effect, but you can use better skills to aid you. Astral Shell or Elemental Saucesphere for example might cost MP, but still look more attractive to me, since they would covers all those (rare) elemental resistance needs with one skill. Maybe we should think about re-ranking those. --Yatsufusa 02:53, 12 August 2011 (CEST)
  • Interesting change. Reducing damage at the friar's is always nice. Reducing damage anywhere is always nice, for that matter. Less damage means you are less likely to get beaten up (such as forgetting to heal before adventuring again), will need to spend fewer resources on healing, can stasis more easily, and won't end up in as many combat situations where you're crossing your fingers to be the victor. And this sort of thing mounts up over the course of a run. It's just really hard to quantify what kind of meat and turn savings this translates into. I think people tend to undervalue damage reducing skills until they start trying to run more +ML, and trying to get into certain high-ML zones (like the bedroom and gallery) early, and eventually see how much of a difference it makes with them permed. One of my standard bits of advice to people struggling with things like that is to perm passives such as these. Their usual problem is a shortage of resources or issues with survivability, and passives that reduce damage taken or increase damage dealt will go a long way to resolve these things (and, rather importantly, without requiring any new resources be spent or micromanaged). --Flargen 06:50, 12 August 2011 (CEST)

Stringozzi

According to http://ben.bloomroad.com/kol/spells/stringozzi.html is one of the most efficient combat spells. Probably this is due to the 50% "poison damage" bonus (which starts the same round you cast it.) It might be debatable but it's definitely higher than tier 8. --Stannius 23:20, 6 September 2011 (CEST)

  • Since nobody objected, I moved it up to Tier 6. --Stannius 23:43, 29 November 2011 (CET)

Master of the Surprising Fist

How do we rank this skill? --Yunatwilight 23:23, 14 September 2011 (CEST)

  • I'd say Tier VI. The DR is nice, but not as nice as having an actual shield. It makes your bare hands more accurate than a weapon if muscle class or very low level. I'd say it is good for killing monsters at levels 1-3ish if you don't run much bonus ML. That's pretty low priority.
  • Like already stated up there, I would suggest Tier 8 or maybe 7. Although Kung Fu Hustler was moved to Tier 6, Hustler grants superior damage-bonus most of the time and, more important, combat initiative and +item drops. Master on the other hand just grants +damage, a little bonus to unarmed hit chance and maybe damage reduction, which is currently being spaded. --Yatsufusa 00:49, 15 September 2011 (CEST)
    • Tier 8. The to-hit and damage bonuses are nearly worthless. If you're doing a Fist run, you'd be using the combat skills, not attacking with no hands. DR is nice, but without knowing the exact formula, it's hard to make a judge. It'd only be tier 6 if it ranked up the Surprising Fist techniques.--Toffile 03:27, 15 September 2011 (CEST)
    • I suggest Tier 7, as the unarmed bonuses are useful during the early portion of a run. Most players will not have access to a shield right away, and the to-hit bonuses allow for early +ML. Interestingly, unarmed attacks are also well suited for Bees Hate You, where finding low level non-B equipment can be a problem. --Itsatrap 22:34, 15 September 2011 (CEST)

Torso Awaregness seriously needs moving up

I permed awaregness two runs ago, did another run with Astral Shirt and that run had more than 100 turns shaved off any of my previous runs. Granted, I did had an extra +20% item and a medium compared to those previous runs, but still... RegalStar 09:15, 26 March 2012 (CEST)

I agree that it's higher than 5, but I have to disagree that it's tier 2. +3 stats per combat saves something like 20 turns of powerleveling. Moving to tier 3. Unless somebody objects. --Stannius 21:22, 10 September 2012 (CEST)

There has been much moving of this skill lately but not much of a discussion... I permed Torso Awaregness pretty early. It's neat. It's really neat! But it's not Tier 2 quality - especially since the astral belt gets more substats than an astral shirt. The skill can provide extra damage absorption and sometimes there's a nice little attribute-bonus, but Tao of the Terrapin did more for me - especially since my first shirt tends to be the ASCII shirt. I agree that it was underrated when it was still listed as Tier 5 (when this topic was started), but Tier 2 was simply to high.
When I compare it to other skills: Hero of the Half-Shell is a great skill, kind of specialized since it's useless to Moxie-classes, but still awesome around 2/3rd of the time. +10% item drops might just get you the drop you desperately need and more loot is always nice, but you could just switch to a fairy for a moment and pass on some substats (A 16 pound Baby Gravy Fairy already offers +42.66% item drops). To me, while Powers of Observatiogn provides somewhat more new equip to aid you, it doesn't have the same direct flexibility that Torso Awaregness does - even when you are restricted in your choice during a run. So I would place Torso Awaregness in Tier 3 between Hero of the Half-Shell and Powers of Observatiogn. Where it had been placed already - how convenient! I think that's just the right place for it for now and shouldn't be moved around anymore. --Yatsufusa 21:27, 16 September 2012 (CEST)

DonHo's up a tier?

DonHo's might be better than "useless". It has some effects regarding PVP: In Season 2, Deepest Diver was a mini. It seems that in all seasons, Saltiest Mariner is a permanent mini. And I suspect as of season 3, all seasons going forward will tally points in and out of HC separately. DonHo's helps a little when adventuring underwater (though it doesn't actually increase your score per se). I would move it up to tier 8. *maybe* tier 7 but probably not. --Stannius 23:21, 4 September 2012 (CEST)

  • Effects regarding PvP are of no interest to this page. To quote the first sentence from the introduction: "This is a listing of all the skills available in the game, arranged into tiers based on how useful they are at speeding up a hardcore ascension." While there might be a PvE-relevant skillbook amongst the PvP-rewards, PvP in itself and being in PvP offers no means of speeding up your ascension. Since it's an otherwise pretty useless skill during an ascension, you might still add your observations (in short form) to the Aquatic skills description here, pointing it out as some kind of bonus. But I think adding your findings to the PvP page will reach the audience you're aiming for much better. --Yatsufusa 04:24, 5 September 2012 (CEST)
    • Good idea. Done. --Stannius 02:32, 18 September 2012 (CEST)

Cold/Spooky Resistance Revisited?

Should Cold Resistance and Spooky Resistance be valued more with the changes to the Level 8 and Level 9 quests? Specifically, the skills Elemental Saucesphere, Northern Exposure, and Cold-Blooded Fearlessness. Astral Shell + Elemental Saucesphere + Northern Exposure fulfills the Cold Resistance requirement for adventuring at the Peak, allowing you to bypass the eXtreme Slope, and Cold and Spooky Resistance allow you to venture deeper in the Horror adventure at The A-boo Peak, which can save a bunch of turns as well. Seems to me they should be the most valued Resistance skills now, as they don't just prevent damage, they actually can save you turns on your run. --Klungar 22:27, 29 January 2013 (CET)

  • I agree to the increased usefulness. However... Although, I don't know how much HP the average player has at this point, I can present some numbers I do know:
  1. With Elemental Saucesphere, Northern Exposure and Cold-Blooded Fearlessness you get a somewhat more optimal Elemental Resistance to karma-ratio and an Elemental Damage Reduction of 40% against Cold and Spooky. (More optimal than perming Astral Shell or Scarysauce for the sake of shortening this specific zone, that is...)
  2. By Rank 3 that ghost Adventure would have dealt a total of 176 damage. Reduced, that would be 106 (rounded up) So you would have to have 107 HP. Without having checked how much HP the average Player has, that sounds perfectly manageable to me.
  3. By Rank 4 it's a total of 426 damage, which would be reduced to 256 (rounded up). 257 HP needed to survive. That sounds pretty hard to do to me right now.
  4. So let's settle for Rank 3, which means 6% additional hauntedness reduction. (To be honest, I have no idea to how many Adventures not spend in that zone translates this to, because I can't find any specific information right now, but it should be at least 3 Adventures.)
  5. However that's an investment of 600 karma we are talking about. So let's see Rank 3 again: 176 damage. Reduced by only a Elemental Saucesphere that's 141 damage. While I'm not sure if that's doable with ease, it sounds doable. In this situation, Spirit of Ravioli (maximum HP +25%) sounds more helpful than passive resistance skills. So let me suggest that Elemental Saucesphere at this point is enough to make a difference/save adventures on that peak with the ghosts. (I'll make a cut here for people to comment on this.) --Yatsufusa 22:39, 2 February 2013 (CET)
  • So for Cold-Blooded Fearlessness: It's still everything it was before, but it doesn't look like it has increased very much in usefulness. Unless someone can prove it actually changes adventures spend during an ascension, it looks good where it is right now. --Yatsufusa 22:39, 2 February 2013 (CET)
  • Which leaves Northern Exposure. Having had pretty much no use at all (back in the days), it's pretty useful right now with bypassing the eXtreme Slope (and making that ghost Adventure easier). A bottle of antifreeze is an option as well, but you loose adventures by eating fortune cookies. So to adventure at the Mist-Shrouded Peak you need Elemental Saucesphere, Northern Exposure and something small like the Exotic Parrot — or Astral Shell, but I'd rather not complicate this topic by that degree, so let's say everyone is happy with a Parrot before spending yet another 200 karma. So while you're adventuring in the Lair of the Ninja Snowmen Northern Exposure is helpful, for the Mist-Shrouded Peak it's mandatory. For me there seems to be no doubt right now: Elemental Saucesphere + Northern Exposure = Adventures Saved! (Again, I don't really know how many. Any kind of data appreciated.) The very Definition of Tier 4 right now is "Skills that make some game portions easier or faster", which sounds fitting to me. But for the sake of comparability one has to keep in mind: We aren't talking about one skill right now, we're talking about two. So how do we approach that? Each of those two skills is still as useful as it was before and has gotten an increase that would otherwise qualify a skill for at least Tier 4, maybe even Tier 2 ("Skills that make combat or quests dramatically easier"). Without knowing how much Adventures get saved I can't tell if dramatically really fits and wouldn't touch those two skills. But once we know, we can make an educated (sorta) decision. --Yatsufusa 22:39, 2 February 2013 (CET)
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