Talk:Items from Monsters

From A KoL Wiki

Where do you suppose someone might find an informative discussion or analysis of what locations are the most profitable for farming? I'm not at all convinced that it is the Castle. The gremlins would be very profitable -as far as mall selling items, if they ever missed... Could a case be made for The Hidden City Ruins? --Snikrepkire 13:18, 8 October 2007 (CDT)

  • On the Wiki, I think that's traditionally been relegated to Basic Farming and Advanced Farming, although those pages are quite out-of-date at the moment. I know there's a special thread for Meat farming discussion on the official KoL forums, but the forums... are down. --Bagatelle 14:16, 8 October 2007 (CDT)

Enlightenment achieved, many thanks for all your help! Would you mind replacing the current example with the Hypothetical Creature example as well as redoing my explanation? I'm plumb tuckered out at the moment, but I bet I'm not the only one who could benefit from your explanation.

I had an intriguing thought this afternoon. I'm not sure where, or if, to draw the line at excess spoilerage, but it would be a pretty nifty thing to have item drop rates in the all monster pages. It would mean a ton of research, but it sure would be keen! --Gymnosophist 20:43, 2 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)

  • This information would be very helpful indeed, especially for required drops (goat cheese, guitarrr, etc.). It'd require an enormous amount of carefully-collected data, though. If this is of interest, I'd be happy to take copious notes next ascension (pretty much a log of every adventure), though it'd only really work if tons of others did similarly. As a side benefit, if enough data is collected, it may also reveal the exact percent which the Packrat sign increases drops :) -Caesar K 00:28, 3 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
  • It is a very difficult project. Considering that you need hundreds of each encounter for the data to be valid, and you MUST take all variables into account. Signs, buffs, items, familiars, etc. What we need is a comprehensive logging script that will take down all the data for us, which we can then manipulate. I've got data on the peak (Only one encounter, so pretty simple), which is already in the wiki (Or was the last time I went to the page), and I've got some data on the Penultimate Fantasy Airship, probably enough to make preliminary drop rate assumptions. But still, logging each adventure is a lot of work. And with most of us doing ascensions, data collection is even more difficult. We should start a page with guidelines for doing such collection, so that everyone who contributes will be sure to follow the same process. The big thing, again, is just to take account of every potential variable when collecting the data.
  • I'm planning on taking down everything my next ascension, and I suppose I can start now on pirates (silly guitarrr...). Should I keep the information tucked away in a text file on my computer, or should I post it in somewhat abbreviated form on my User_talk:Caesar K page (where it seems people tend to keep notes on things)? -Caesar K 21:40, 3 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
  • Probably whatever is most convenient for you. Keeping your user page updated with info might require a lot of work. Well, in addition to simply logging everything, which is work in itself. I'd certainly be interested in any information you obtain, if you decide to make it public. Perhaps we should come up with a more formal way of keeping track of such info until it is formalized and added to the database. I'll post some ideas at Data Collection Guidelines. --Snickles 22:37, 3 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)

Regarding Booze Giants, it seems there are two of them, completely identical, except their drops, as it can be seen on Subjunctive KoL, so the "3 drops maxium" rule still applies. But I'm wondering what happens when shirts come into action. For example, Knob Goblin Elite Guardsmans usually have 3 drops, but if you have Torso Awaregness, they can drop a Knob Goblin elite shirt, and thus, can potentially drop 4 items. How does this really work? Can they really drop 4 items? They can't drop one of their old items anymore? (this doesn't seem likely, as you would be unable to get the Knob Goblin Elite Guard Uniform) Are there sereval encounters of them, so that one can drop the shirt and other two items, and the other one drops the outfit? --Pcentella 07:09, 3 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)

  • The shirt business is an unusual situation. My guess, since the shirt drops by an unusual process (unique among monster drops, as far as I know), is that the shirt is a fourth, scripted drop. The only way to prove it is to adventure with Torso A. and a lot of +Item Find until someone gets four items from a goblin, or detects a pattern in how items drop. If the shirt consistently drops with two of the other items, it might be safe to assume that there are two encounters.
  • On multi item drops, I looked at Imp Ale and the monsters that drop it - L imp, P imp and W imp. All three of the imps drop three separate items (the L imp, for example, drops Imp Ale, cast and flaming crutch), so, unless seeing double Imp Ale drops was just an ale-induced figment of my imagination, it sounds like there still may be some mystery as to the drop process.
  • Looks good. I just ran ~100 adventures in the Gate with +75%, and didn't get anything unusual. There is, however, a non-combat adventure that provides 3 imp ales, which may be the adventure you remember. Of course, ~100 adventures without seeing a given drop is not entirely unusual, as the filthy knitted dread sack will attest, so more data will have to be collected before we can come to any conclusions. I'm technically on vacation this week, so I'm trying to avoid getting on the Internet. By this weekend I should be contributing a lot more. --Snickles 13:19, 3 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
  • Thanks for checking - it wouldn't be the first time that ale's gotten the better of me.  :) Enjoy your vacation. --Gymnosophist 13:46, 3 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)

Semi-Archived Talks

Is the explanation for item drop calculations correct? I'd always assumed that a monster had three different drops, with individual RNG rolls, each affected by the +% item increase. For example, Knott Yetis have ~30% chance of dropping a fur and ~30% of dropping a skin. +100% increase would improve that to 60% chance of either one dropping. I'm not explaining well, 'cause I'm in the middle of something and need to go, and I'm also known to be unable to read, so, eh, take this with a grain of salt. And thanks. --Snickles 15:50, 1 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)

  • I really don't know the details of the calculation for multi item drops. In fact, I'll be brutally honest and say that I'm far from being any kind of KOL expert. I basically took the existing comment from the Drop Rate page and attempted to clarify it without deviating from the underlying mechanics as previously explained. The way I see it, perhaps wrongly, is that the beauty of a Wiki is it's self correcting nature. If something's wrong, someone who knows better will come along and fix it. That's why I made the assumption I did about the plexiglass pocketwatch not stacking - I thought it was probably right, but if not, it would soon be corrected. Perhaps in that case I should have been more careful and qualified the stacking comment. In this case, I'm relying on existing information to be correct. This certainly would be a fruitful area to research in detail. Here's what the old Drop Page said:
  • If you have multiple percentage increases active at the same time, the percentages are added together.For example, if a player has a 10 lb. leprechaun (50%), Polka of Plenty (50%), and Expert Panhandling (10%) active, then meat drops will be increased by 50+50+10 = 110%. A monster that normally drops about 100 meat would then drop about 210 meat.
  • Item drop percentages are also added together, but the final results are more tricky. If a player, for example, had 3 Mr. Accessory Jr.s and a miniature gravy-covered maypole equipped, all item drop rates would be doubled (4 items times 25% each). Thus, items that naturally drop 50% of the time would drop every time, while items that naturally drop 1% of the time would now drop 2% of the time.

  • The formulas given are correct. The only difference is that each individual item has a discrete chance of appearing. Just as an example, The Wiki Nazi has a 0% chance of dropping X, 25% of dropping Y, 50% of dropping Z, and 75% chance of dropping M. A character with items that added up to +120% item drops would then have a 0%, 55%, 100%, and 100% chance of recieving the items. The cap is at 100% per item. It is entirely possible that you were saying the same thing in different words, and I misread it. But I went ahead and changed the page to reflect my thinking. --Snickles 17:30, 1 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
  • Perhaps we are indeed saying the same thing, or then again, perhaps I'm just being dense, but I'm not sure how the above is reflected in the page changes. It seems to me that, absent any modifiers, the Wiki Nazi would drop an average of 1.5 items per battle (.25Y + .5Z + .75M = 1.5). So far, things seem pretty straightforward. Much more interesting is the case with the +120% modifier. A preliminary calculation would indicate a drop of 3.3 items ((.25 * 220% = .55Y) + (.5 * 220% = 1.1Z) + (.75 * 220% = 1.65M) = 3.3). However, the Nazi will drop at most 3.0 items. Does this mean that the Nazi will always drop exactly 3 items? And if so, will they be, on average in a ratio of .5/1.0/1.5 ((.55 * 3/3.3 = .5Y) + (1.1 * 3/3.3 = 1.0Z) + (1.65 * 3/3.3 = 1.5M)= 3.0)? Could the Nazi drop less than 3 items? If so, what would the averages be and what would the ratios be? Interesting questions for research. But getting back to the example table, it seems to me that the 100% cap is misleading, or at least nonintuitive. I think that the bottom row comment should include something like "an average of 1.2 items will be obtained on every adventure". And the comment for the 66% Drop Rate example doesn't seem right either - in the course of 3 adventures, 3.7% of the time you'll get 0 items, 22.2% of the time you'll get 1 item, 44.4% of the time you'll get 2 items, and 29.6% of the time you'll get 3 items. It's much better to present the results in terms of average expected gain from a single adventure. And the example doesn't really touch on the complexities of a multi-item drop monster (perhaps thankfully). But it's not something that I feel strongly about as we only have a rough understanding of the underlying calculation. But clearly, there are areas of ambiguity that remain to be clarified. Ok, that's enough from me, I'm going to go now to look for some stuff I seem to have dropped.  :~) --Gymnosophist 22:31, 1 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
  • Having worked with the numbers for quite some time now, it seems fairly straightforward to me. Each individual potential drop has a chance of dropping. You can't add the percentages together; they have nothing to do with each other. Each drop is capped at 100%, because you can't drop an item with greater than 100% regularity. Perhaps a better table would show a hypothetical creature with three potential drops at rates of 1%, 10%, and 50%.
Hypothetical
Creature		Base Drop Rate+10% (A)+50% (B)+100% (C)+200% (D)
Item #11%1.1%1.5%2%3%
Item #210%11%15%20%30%
Item #350%55%75%100%100%
  • In case A, you would be recieving an average of 0.671 (0.55+0.11+0.011) items per adventure. In case B, you'd recieve 0.915 items per adventure. In case C, 1.22 items per adventure. And case D would net you an average of 1.33 items per adventure. In case D, Item #3 is capped at 100% because it will then always drop. You can't do better than a 100% of dropping. In each case, you will be much more likely to recieve item #3 than #2 or #1, and much more likely to recieve item #2 than item #1. --Snickles 00:47, 2 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
  • Also worth noting is the fact that a handful of monsters, most notably those from the HitS, have multiple drops of the same item. Some of them have item drop profiles of Star, Star, Line, or Line, Line, Star. Which means they can drop multiple items of the same type, which defies the pricess described above EXCEPT that each drop IS still an independant process. Recieving two stars from a battle doesn't mean you have a >100% chance of recieving a star, it merely means that that creature has multiple potential star drops. --Snickles 09:12, 2 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
  • Snickles & Payback, thanks for the explanations, things seem much clearer to me now. And yes, the Hypothetical Creature table seems like a better explanation. I still have a couple of questions that perhaps you could help me with: Perhaps my memory is faulty, but I could swear that I've sometimes gotten multiple item drops from monsters that, according to our database, should only drop one of that type of item. Things like spider webs, Moxie weed and Imp Ale I seem to remember getting multiple item drops. Does this mean that the monsters that drop multiple items should be modified to indicate that that creature has multiple potential drops for that particular item? Also, I'm guessing that the Booze Giant, with it's 6 different item drops must have some additional mechanism that prevents getting more than 3 drops in total. Thanks. --Gymnosophist 10:53, 2 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
  • Yes, most likely those entries should be altered to reflect the chance of multiple drops. The Booze Giant, as well as the ninja snowman (maybe others) actually have multiple, nearly identical database entries. So, there are actually two Booze Giant encounters (I don't know if this is reflected in the wiki database, but I'm pretty sure the ninja snowman is listed as two encounters. We'll have to update the Booze Giant if not), and each can drop three different boozes. Therefore, depending on how they are listed in the database, you will never get certain combinations of boozes to drop together from a single booze giant encounter. -Snickles 15:42, 2 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
  • Enlightenment achieved, many thanks for all your help! Would you mind replacing the current example with the Hypothetical Creature example as well as redoing my explanation? I'm plumb tuckered out at the moment, but I bet I'm not the only one who could benefit from your explanation.
  • I had an intriguing thought this afternoon. I'm not sure where, or if, to draw the line at excess spoilerage, but it would be a pretty nifty thing to have item drop rates in the all monster pages. It would mean a ton of research, but it sure would be keen! --Gymnosophist 20:43, 2 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
  • (These bullet points are getting awfully nested - perhaps the comment above and this one should move to the top level?) This information would be very helpful indeed, especially for required drops (goat cheese, guitarrr, etc.). It'd require an enormous amount of carefully-collected data, though. If this is of interest, I'd be happy to take copious notes next ascension (pretty much a log of every adventure), though it'd only really work if tons of others did similarly. As a side benefit, if enough data is collected, it may also reveal the exact percent which the Packrat sign increases drops :) -Caesar K 00:28, 3 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
  • Regarding Booze Giants, it seems there are two of them, completely identical, except their drops, as it can be seen on Subjunctive KoL, so the "3 drops maxium" rule still applies. But I'm wondering what happens when shirts come into action. For example, Knob Goblin Elite Guardsmans usually have 3 drops, but if you have Torso Awaregness, they can drop a Knob Goblin elite shirt, and thus, can potentially drop 4 items. How does this really work? Can they really drop 4 items? They can't drop one of their old items anymore? (this doesn't seem likely, as you would be unable to get the Knob Goblin Elite Guard Uniform) Are there sereval encounters of them, so that one can drop the shirt and other two items, and the other one drops the outfit? --Pcentella 07:09, 3 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)


I seem to remember Jick explaining this on the forums a while ago. According to my memory, as I cannot find the thread, the following is correct, and should only be qualified to reflect that an item that drops 75% of the time normally will drop every adventure, but only one will drop. I think that if it is made clear that each monster only has 3 item slots then the page will be fine. I won't edit the main page, as I'm quite bad at creating coherent sentences (see drop rate).

  • Item drop percentages are also added together, but the final results are more tricky. If a player, for example, had 3 Mr. Accessory Jr.s and a miniature gravy-covered maypole equipped, all item drop rates would be doubled (4 items times 25% each). Thus, items that naturally drop 50% of the time would drop every time, while items that naturally drop 1% of the time would now drop 2% of the time.

--Payback 23:17, 1 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)

Isn't it possible to achieve a 58lb fairy now, with the Green Tongue effect from the Green snowcone? --Littlenicky40 12:47, 31 January 2006 (Central Standard Time)


--Someone should add Peeled Eyeballs! --Cwitz 22:39, 27 March 2006 (CST)


Why does the chart say Peeled Eyeballs give +40%, while the effect page for them say only +15%? It's either one or the other, not both! =P --Jihiro 01:33, 17 May 2006 (CDT)

Dancing

Do we want to mention anywhere about the tendancy for the game to use dancing as an indication of increased item drops (e.g. the BGF dancing, the maypole, Christopher Walken kickin' it old school with the Cupcake of Choice, the Blue Tongue dancing in your mouth, the fact that jekyllins dance when the moon is out, etc.) somewhere in either here, or one of the other pages?

I'm also thinking of something along those lines with smiling, but for some reason I thought to ask here first.--LoopyChew 18:50, 7 June 2006 (CDT)

Shirts

  • The shirt business is an unusual situation. My guess, since the shirt drops by an unusual process (unique among monster drops, as far a[s I can tell].--Gunitgangsta 20:11, 28 June 2006 (CDT)

Buffing Spray

Shouldn't the Knob Goblin pet-buffing spray be included in this analysis? With a fairy gravy type familiar, it's good for +12.5%, right? --Club 14:30, 31 August 2006 (CDT)

  • no other indirect buffs or items are listed, so I don't see why pet-buffing spray would be.... --Hellion 14:47, 31 August 2006 (CDT)

Hobo Power and +Items

I added the Hobo Power items to the Speculative - Needs Research category, which may or may not be the right place for them. The notes need some work to be both explanatory and not overly long. --Demarken 12:38, 19 June 2008 (CDT)

Special drop bonuses and conditional drop bonuses

They should have their own section. You would only care about them when you know the conditions fit, so they clutter up the main table uselessly, and you would care a lot about them when the conditions fit, so it's easier to see them all together. --Raijinili 04:51, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

  • On a similar note, since there are so many categories of stuff now I will break the table further into tables for seperate things types, for underwater, and for special battles.Spriteless

Items that give food when used and +food drops

I'm talking about stuff like MPEs, FGFs, black picnic basket - are they affected by food drops modifiers, like cooking ingredients? Edir 10:51, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Source types

Shouldn't "Singer's Faithful Ocelot" have a source type of "Buff Skill"? Not sure I know the rules for what qualifies as what type. -- JaAchan (talk) 09:32, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Stacking +Item, +Booze, +Food, etc. And items with multiple bonuses

I have some questions that I do not see specifically answered:

1) Does +Item stack with +Food, +Booze, and other +'s? I am assuming yes.

2) Do items that have multiple +'s (+Item, +Booze, +Food, etc.), such as the jam band, add the most applicable bonus, or does it add all applicable bonuses? IE. I am farming for Psychotic Train Wine while having the Jam Band equipped. Will the PTW drop have a +20% from just the +Booze, or will it have a +25% from the +Booze stacked with the +Item?

--Boondoggle The Magnificent (talk) 17:29, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

Retrieved from "https://wiki.kingdomofloathing.com/index.php?title=Talk:Items_from_Monsters&oldid=480138"