Talk:Ninja Pirate Zombie Robot

From A KoL Wiki

Why do I keep getting, "Your other familiars look a little bored." when I use my NPZR? And there's nothing in any wiki entry about this. Any clue? --Dandandandan 08:58, 11 April 2007 (CDT)

Mafia's anti-NPZR stasis code. Added in 10.9--Toffile 09:07, 11 April 2007 (CDT)

Is the damage the NPZR deals physical? For example, could it damage a Snow Queen?--EPITAthx1 08:13, 16 December 2006 (CST)

Hey, just how much DOES this thing delevel? Anyone tried to figure it out yet? - Mojo

PhoenixFireRising said on the boards, no, this is not a custom item, it is just "nearly fucking impossible to figure out HOW to make it". --NewZorkBat 17:32, 3 February 2006 (Central Standard Time)

Given the existence of the pirate zombie head, it seems likely this isn't a custom familiar. --Veistran 17:59, 3 February 2006 (Central Standard Time)

Why would people not spoiler it, afterall not providing a spoiler just enriches both physically and with epenis the clan and its cliques. The second I am able to find this out I will post it here and in the forum. --Practitioner of Saucy Arts 01:54, 4 February 2006 (Central Standard Time)

We don't have an epenis, because we're an open and inviting clan, and we most certainly don't have cliques. Maybe you're thinking of some other clan. The reason we don't want this spoiled right away is because it's really hard, and really cool, and it's pretty much a side quest just to make the item. Nobody is entitled to this familiar except for the four of us who recieved them. If you figure out a really big ass puzzle, the familiar should be your reward for getting it. This isn't something like ascension, where everybody has to be able to figure it out to complete the game, this is a side thing meant to honor our clan. And if it's meant to honor our clan, why on earth is the fact that it puffs up our pride debatable? That's what it's supposed to be doing.

All we're asking for is a little bit of time before everyone comes here to get it. --User:Vida Londres 10:51, 5 February 2006 (Pacific Time)

Don't kid yourself. Most of what is done here is not, in fact, required to complete the game. Not a bit. You have your time. You have until someone is willing to post it here. And that's all the longer you have. --Unnatural20 01:56, 6 February 2006 (Central Standard Time)

While I sympathize with the original owner's desire to "Have the cool unique thing longer", the point of the matter is you already *have*. No one will ever have that familiar before you, and your names (and clan) will be inextricablly linked to it- noted on this site itself. No one else can say that. And if its as hard to figure out as you say, you'll more than likelly have it for some time after- barring people like Bashy who can buy 8 of every item that exists to make it- and Bashy ain't talking. So take you moment of glory here- because, let's be honest, you've earned it- But telling people on a spoiler site to not spoil something is somewhat rude at best, and counterproductive at worst.--Rikmach 03:14, 6 February 2006 (Central Standard Time)

personaly i think it is made from a pirate zombie head and one of those toster thing that you get when you ascend (they are in the making of the robot thing if you want to find out thir name) i havent tried this idea cos i havent ascended and you can't buy one of them i respect that the people with the familiar want to have the familiar to them selves for a while but if everyone doese have one what difference is it going to make to them by the way if my idea is right could someone tell me thx --Weedafile 22:35, 14 August 2006 (CDT)


Cake-Shaped Arena

I believe that he has no weakness. I have run him through all 4 events, and he seems to have no disadvantage. There is certainly no warning message like there is with other familiars (e.g. blood-faced volleyball has no claws or weapons so is bad at ultimate cage match). I'm not sure what his "good event" is, though. --Gothhenge 13:30, 14 February 2006 (Central Standard Time)



Statistics

EraWeightCombat Rounds# Attacks (Damage)# Heals (Amount)# Meat (Amount)# Daze Attacks# ToastInformationSource
Era 110 LBS50063 (16, 18, 19)53 (21, 23, 24)55 (48-94)4428-Monochrome Jesus
19 LBS214 (30, 31, 33)4 (35, 38)5 (104-116)11-Yiab
20 LBS55454 (31, 33, 34)65 (36, 38, 39)64 (100-168)6628-Yiab, Monochrome Jesus
21 LBS684 (33, 36)3 (36, 38)7 (111-179)88-Yiab
22 LBS14920 (34, 36, 37)15 (39, 41, 42)17 (112-180)157-Yiab
30 LBS50068 (46, 48, 49)50 (51, 53, 54)50 (139-240)5427-Monochrome Jesus
35 LBS57667 (54, 55, 57)52 (59, 60, 62)76 (165-283)6928-Yiab
40 LBS50075 (61, 63, 64)49 (66, 68, 69)59 (184-317)5731-Monochrome Jesus

HP/MP Restoring strategy

I use my NPZR to restore my MP (and/or HP) for free (usually in 1 or 2 adventures) when I don't yet have my house. I do this in the following way:

  • Obtain a seal tooth, scroll of turtle summoning, facsimile dictionary, toy soldier (without tequila in your inventory) or some other item that you can use in combat without having it be used up in the process. Preferably one that does little or no damage to your opponent.
  • Get out your NPZR, Cocoabo, or other familiar that heals you during combat.
  • Visit an area where you have enough Moxie to adventure without ever being hit. (Check the Safe Adventuring list).
  • Simply use the combat item over and over again. This minimizes the damage done to your enemy and makes the fight last for many rounds, giving your familiar ample opportunity to heal you.
  • Sometimes your familiar will kill your opponent before your HP and MP are full. If that's the case, simply adventure again.

--Gothhenge 10:38, 1 April 2006 (CST)

I do that too! I also get a fair amount of meat at times, sometimes getting 1500 meat in one turn. Should this go someplace along with things such as the starfish trick or statis strategy?--Dehstil 21:25, 2 May 2006 (CDT)


NPZR vs Sorceress

Does anybody else notice the NPZR heals for a lot less than it should when facing the Naughty Sorceress? When I take my 30lb to battle it restores around 27 hp/mp when elsewhere it does upwards of 40.

  • She delevels your familiar, remember? A 30lb NPZR is acting more like a 15lb NPZR against the NS. Mr. Blonde 05:05, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

Has the chance of toast gone up, or does increasing drop rate increase toast rate maybe? I just got 12 pieces of toast from my NPZR in 40 adventures, which seems to be a lot more than the numbers would indicate. --Emtu 12:10, 10 September 2006 (CDT)

Formulas

The following formulas for healing and damage appear consistent with given data (where r(-1, 0, 1) means randomly choose one of -1, 0 or 1): heal = floor[(weight + r(-1, 0, 1))*3/2]+8 damage = floor[(weight + r(-1, 0, 1))*3/2]+3 --Yiab 23:12, 20 October 2006 (CDT)


I just came up with and added alternate formulas that match both the data on these pages and my own. heal:int((x+1d3)*1.5) damage:int((x+1d3)*1.5)+5 Both work.--Joeisme 00:17, 7 April 2007 (CDT)

NPZR Farming

So, here are our givens in the NPZR-farming situation...

Question: How many rounds, on average, will a battle last?

1. Damage = weight * 3/2 2. Probability of damage = .11 3. Battles are cut off after 30 rounds.

Now, your immediate impulse may be to take the average amount of damage it deals, like this:

Battle length = Monster HP / ((weight * 3/2) * .11). Then, if battle length > 30, lower it to 30.

However, this does not work in practice, as shown here:

Take this example. Weight = 20, monster HP = 99. By that formula, a battle = 100 / (20 x 3/2 x .11) = 100 / 3.3 = 30 rounds. However. A battle can never be more than 30 rounds. But a battle can end after four rounds if you get majorly unlucky and hit four times in a row. Therefore, the average is going to be less than 30. So, the above formula can't work.

  • John, as far as I can tell, chances of hitting 4 time in a 30 turn battle are slim, as: 11% x 30 = 3.3 turns. Chances of of hitting 4 time in a 4 turn battle are 0.11^4 = almost never. Take note that you're going to deal damage on turn 30 whatever the NPZR does, so it shouldn't be counted (giving a usual 3.19 hits in 29 rounds, making the maths much simpler, for a minor increase in prediction error).--The Safe 17:42, 18 November 2006 (CST)
    • I'm gonna have to disagree with you...why would we want more error? Plus, to say you pretty much always get to round 30 is a waay wrong. I've farmed with the NPZR in various locations and that's not how it works at all, unless you're farming at a high level place like the hole in the sky or the castle.--Dehstil (t|c) 23:09, 18 November 2006 (CST)
      • It would be unwise to farm for meat with an NPZR if Monster HP < 4.95 x weight. So, for a 30lbs NPZR the castle is your best option. As for the margin of error, there would be no more than 11% difference in the long term prediction (1000+ adventures) of both calculations (I haven't done the comparison yet, this only represents an extra hit and is bound to be much lower), and it is much easier to use an estimate based on: (4 x Monster HP + 35) mpa, than the table below. Also, when it comes down to numbers, what John is actually saying is that the ratio should be Monster HP > 5.33 x weight (instead of 4.95). I'll have to read his reasoning, when he posts it, as the chance of it making a difference is < 0.5%, and you'll still have to kill the monster at turn 30 - only you're going to need to deal MUCH more damage (at least 22% of Monster HP: to cover an extra NPZR hit which might have not taken place + compensation for the extra HP as the ratio is higher).--The Safe 00:09, 19 November 2006 (CST)
      • Why are we having this discussion; john's way is more accurate and should be the one used unless you're lazy.--Dehstil (t|c) 22:21, 21 November 2006 (CST)
        • It isn't about being lazy, Dehstil - No lazy person is going to farm with a NPZR. But having to deal 100 damage on turn 30 to an alphabet giant for a theoretical 0.5% increase in income sounds risky. Unless it is validated mathematically to make a difference, I don't think the wiki should be promoting it. Note that I haven't replaced John's post, we are having - as this page title states - a discussion, and I really would like to see the proof-analogue, once John gets to it... --The Safe 00:26, 22 November 2006 (CST)
          • John's way is the only mathematically way to verify whether it would matter in the first place. The proof would go like this: figure what you'd get at the castle the real way (john's way), approximate what you 'd get using a less accurate method, since the approximation is happens to be close for farming at the castle the two ways are almost indistinguishable. The only problem is that we would not then post the approximation was the way to show how the castle value was calculated because that is not the way we figured it out. To be fully accurate when we show that, we'd have to show proof that the chance of finishing before round 30 is negligible. How would we do that? Showing the combinatorics john used.--Dehstil (t|c) 00:11, 24 November 2006 (CST)
            • OK, here's the math: chances of N hits in 30 turns: C(N,30)*(0.11^N)*[0.89^(30-N)]. So, chances of 4+ hits: 0.42, and of 7+ hits: 0.07 (8+: 0.017). However, since we are using a Bin(30, 0.11) distribution, EX=3.3, and Var=2.211. So, you'll be counting 3.3 average meat drops per combat at least 58% of the time no matter how you predict. The rest of the time, you'd usually predict 3.3, whilst John's value is slightly lower (take note, when Monster HP > 4.95 x weight, you are going to need 4+ hits to kill). Less than 17% difference on the combat adventures. John's prediction would be usually a bit more accurate (and a bit lower): either when less than 4 hits are needed to kill a monster, or when less than 8 hits are needed and the last hit happens before round 26. I would have rather had John post the math, instead of calculating it myself...--The Safe 00:59, 26 November 2006 (CST)
            • As for the practical issue of how much more accurate John's table is, calculating that would be hell: In order to assure 8+ hits and no kill, Monster HP > 12 x weight. Since EX=3.3, expect damage dealt by turn 30 to be: 3.3*3/2*weight. You now usually need to deal 7 x weight damage on turn 30 to win the fight (sometimes more!). Since you are unlikely to do so, you'll either be hitting the monster before turn 30 - making both methods of prediction obsolete, or loosing fights more often when trying to maximize income - thus introducing new error parameters to the calculation.--The Safe 00:59, 26 November 2006 (CST)
            • When I am up to it, in a few months, I'll be doing some long-term first-hand research in the castle (if no one else does so first). I'm not sure 1000 combat adventures would be enough, but it'll be a start.--The Safe 00:59, 26 November 2006 (CST)

When I get around to it, I (User:Johnthescavenger) shall put a proof-analogue of my formula up here. For now, though, here's just the results of it.

Johnthescavenger's method

First, calculate how many hits it takes to kill the monster.

      Monster HP      
(NPZR weight*3/2)

Round up if you get a fraction. Then look at this table to see your average battle length and number of times the NPZR finds meat.

HitsLength# of meat drops
8+~303.3
729.853.28
629.463.24
528.513.14
426.422.91
322.572.48
216.621.83
18.82.97

Then you just multiply your average # of meat drops per adventure by how big they are. That would be

# of meat drops * (weight * 6 + 10) = Average meat gain per adventure

  • I was curious about this and, using the formulas found on the wiki, wrote a simple program to simulate battles and track the meat output from an NPZR at various levels. If the formulas I used were correct, I can verify John's table as correct to at least two significant figures. I don't know how he got these values but they seem very accurate.

    Also from my simulations, when farming in the Castle, an NPZR seems to match a 60lb Leprechaun at a paltry 20lb! Any heavier and the NPZR wins by some margin. The NPZR meat harvest varies somewhat, going up with weight but dropping whenever the number of attacks needed goes down. The optimal value in my results seems to be in the neighborhood of 45lb, such that each hit does no more than 74 damage.

    As an aside, I'm also pretty sure a 40-lb or heavier Cocoabo will be slightly better in the Castle than a 60lb Leprechaun. Food for thought. --Syntaxglitch 05:33, 7 January 2007 (CST)
    • Technically, the optimum weight is infinity. The optimum weight that's still possible varies with the opponent available, especially around crimbo time or spectral pickle factory time ;). Another possibility (a little difficult though) is to get to level 50 or whatever and then fight baron von ratsworth ensuring that you never win one fight, if you could get the weight high enough too.--Dehstil (t|c) 16:57, 7 January 2007 (CST)
      • Yes, the optimum weight is infinity. Therefore all meat farming should be done in Valhalla. It's so simple, why didn't I see this before! :D
        If I can clarify a bit, this was only for monsters with 150 HP, in which case the meat harvest peaks around 45lb, and doesn't surpass that peak until about 70lb. Assuming one is farming at the Castle with no +ML, a 45lb NPZR seems best. As for Ratsworth... a 60lb NPZR will be finding about 370 meat and doing about 95 damage (as an upper limit). By John's table, 30-ish rounds of battle gives about 3.3 meat drops, thus 1221 meat per battle. We want Ratsworth to survive at least 6 hits, ideally rather more to prevent accidentally winning, which means he needs 600 HP or more. Which, judging from the discussion on his wiki page, means the player needs 300-400 HP at very least. That implies either a lot of (expensive) stat boosts or being rather high level (though nowhere near 50). On the other hand, in the Castle with a 45lb NPZR and only a modest boost of +200% meat drops from buffs and equipment, you'd be getting nearly 1100 meat per combat. I think it'd take rather a long time for the extra time spent levelling before fighting Ratsworth to pay off. Using +ML to increase the HP of the Giants would probably be more successful; I'm not sure what exact balance between +meat% and +ML would be optimal (I could do some rough calculations, but not tonight.) Any other high-HP monster (such as the pickle factory encounters) that drops no meat is going to look similar to Ratsworth's numbers--i.e., uninspiring. --Syntaxglitch 23:37, 8 January 2007 (CST)

+x% meat drops?

  • Do items like Lucky Rabbit's Foot and the Baron's monocle affect the amount of meat the NPZR gives?--VDZ 14:32, February 11, 2007
    • No those only affect the monster's meat drops. The NPZR's meat drops rely on its weight only.--Dehstil (t|c) 13:52, 11 February 2007 (CST)

Farming the Castle VS Knob Shaft Synergy

At anything above thirty pounds, a NPZR becomes able to kill the monsters in the Castle, given thirty rounds. Thus, it's only 827 meat, plus whatever +meat you have on, (assuming the 30lb/30rnd). However, and the knob shaft, using a seal tooth, It takes around 28-29 rounds to kill the monster, no matter what lb NPZR you use. This means, that with a 45lb, (20 base, equip, sympathy empathy, leash and heavy petting), you're getting 924 meat. At 40 lbs, you're getting 825 mpa- the same as the castle. So, at higher weights, isn't the Knob Shaft better?--DaemonStryker 16:59, 11 August 2007 (CDT)

  • Based on what I remember from doing some calculations on this, the normal meat drops from the giants made them pretty much better than anything else available in the game. Yes, the NPZR can steal more meat in the knob shaft, but not as much extra as the giants drop, especially if you have some +Meat buffs running.

    However, those calculations were all done for NS11 areas using current guesses at the NPZR formulas. As such, farming NS13 areas may be better, or for all we know the NPZR formulas may have been changed to eliminate this technique entirely. There is a certain degree of lag-inducing server rape involved in NPZR farming, as bad or worse than stasis tactics.
    --Syntaxglitch 11:02, 12 August 2007 (CDT)


Cleaning part of this talk

I've noticed that all the posts in this page refer to the pre-nerf NPZR. If someone read the page and is not aware of he nerf may get the wrong idea and go on farming with a NPZR. Maybe we should move the comments in some subpage. Grammar nazi 15:40, 2 January 2009 (UTC) p.s. to casual readers: it is always convenient to farm with a leprechaun-type familiar, maybe except some extreme and peculiar situations.

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